Angry over the college admissions process

QuantMech · December 2, 2012, 9:14am

Pizzagirl, I already gave you some additional background information in a PM I sent you about a year and a half or two years ago. If you didn’t get it, I will re-send it.

Again, I don’t hate Marilee Jones. I feel sorry for her. I feel that she had a negative impact on MIT admissions, which it looks as though Stu Schmill is gradually eliminating.

I don’t have an MIT fetish. As I said about 500 posts ago, I am actually getting sort of bored of the MIT issues. However, I am really stubborn in pressing points (I admit that).

I was wrong about the years in which 1% of MIT admits scored between 500 and 599 on the SAT M, but from later posts by others, there appear to have been 2 years in which this happened. My recollection (now) is that these were in the Common Data Sets for 2007-2008 and 2008-2009. If the data set for 2007-2008 refers to students who were incoming freshmen in that academic year (which I think is correct, but someone could check), then Marilee was in charge of admissions of all those except about 25 admitted from the waitlist.

In terms of scoring points on the USAMO, this is not based on the ability to fill in bubbles. The AMC12 is a multiple-choice test. However, the AIME is a “fill in the blank with a number between 0 and 999.” Reverse-engineering the question is not possible. There are 15 questions on the AIME and 3 hours to do them. The USAMO consists entirely of proofs. There are 6 questions on the USAMO, and 9 hours to do them (in two 4.5 hour sessions, spread over 2 days).

Finally, with regard to graduation rates: In general, I think it is quite difficult to be a young African-American in our society. African-Americans still face much discrimination, even if they come from affluent backgrounds.

I don’t know about MIT’s financial aid policy, but I think that the relevant comparison in assessing the impact of loans is to the annual family income of the applicant. If loans are in the financial-aid mix, as they probably are, then an “acceptable” level of debt based on projected future earnings looks a lot different, for people with different family incomes. In particular, if an MIT student accumulates more debt in one or two years than his/her family’s annual income, this can take a toll all by itself. As I say, I don’t know about MIT’s loan policy. If they don’t include loans in the financial aid packages of people from less affluent families, then please ignore this remark.

Sue22 · December 2, 2012, 9:39am

“There is some irony (or is it hypocrisy?) in colleges needing students who will pay $55k for less than 9 months of education, a dreary shared room and crappy food, and at the same time judging unworthy those applicants who may have spent $10k to get an education about the world, done something nice for people while at it, but had the gall to write about it.”

Or perhaps there’s some irony in families bemoaning the need to come up with $55,000 for a year of a college education only to spend $10,000 for their kids to do two weeks of work they could have done for free at the shelter/food bank/afterschool program around the corner.

QuantMech · December 2, 2012, 9:48am

Just wanted to add: in terms of my recent narrow focus on MIT.

I wouldn’t suggest that HYPS should auto-admit the students who score points on the USAMO, because the mix of qualities that indicates high potential for the future is different at different universities, because of the mix of majors and career aspirations.

I don’t suggest that Caltech should auto-admit this group, because I suspect that they already do (even though their admitted classes are much smaller than MIT’s).

I don’t suggest that Olin should auto-admit this group, because their total number of admitted students is too small for this policy to make sense for them. (This is an example where the numbers really matter.)

QuantMech · December 2, 2012, 9:51am

On a separate issue, I think that any good that people do is worthwhile, even if they or their parents are spending quite a lot of money to do it.

sally305 · December 2, 2012, 10:07am

Exactly. And tying this back to the broader question of college admissions (please, enough about MIT!)–there are students who don’t “stand out” in terms of community service because they do what they care about, not what they think adcoms want to see. My son was a perfect example of this. He refused to do anything based on “how it would look” for college admissions. As a result, he had a very random, scattered list of volunteer activities that didn’t show any consistency at all. But everything he did was from the heart.

I’d also add that in addition to kids whose families can shell out a lot of money for organized service activities, the other kids who seem to have a natural advantage in this area are those who are required to do charitable projects through their churches or synagogues.

Sue22 · December 2, 2012, 10:09am

I should clarify that I’m not against service abroad, just the way it’s often done in an effort to impress college admissions officers. I’ve spoken with too many kids who have come home from these trips with not a clue about the social and political forces that created the poverty they’ve witnessed and who, after college application season is over, never give the people they met abroad a second thought other than as characters in their personal stories, to feel good about them.

I’m very much in favor of high school community service requirements. I think they help expose kids to a variety of service opportunities and often because of them kids find a service activity they love and are able to stick with.

Pizzagirl · December 2, 2012, 10:21am

Like I said, the young woman I know who did just think got into Stanford, Yale and some other nice places.

lookingforward · December 2, 2012, 10:57am

Not to start any fights, but if the point is to get a 10k “education about the world,” represent it as that. This is one of the diciest aspects of privilege in a college app.

The issues about the expensive 3rd world trips exist beyond PG’s comments. It’s real and shows up on apps. It is not a showstopper. IMO, the point isn’t that it’s overdone and you have to be different. The point is what it represents in this kid. Is it a one-time, parents could afford it, spent a few hours in service, drive-through experience, made out to be life changing, without ANY other evidence of compassionate commitments? Does it come across as needing an expensive trip to understand what others experience and endure?

If you feel comm svc is a simple matter of show, collecting a minimum number of hours, you miss the point. If you think “seeing” poverty and visiting an orphanage is sufficient, you miss the point.

There are really great kids out there who get it, who commit. Not that hard, for those who can see the needs around them.

lake42ks · December 2, 2012, 10:58am

A “1600 hours 1600 SAT” rule - Any top applicant who has spent 1600 hours with a disadvantaged kid (inner city or the like) and brought his/her SAT score to 1600 by 7th or 8th grade gets auto-admit. Holistically evaluate those who miss the cut.

texaspg · December 2, 2012, 11:10am

^ for which school though? I don’t think MIT would care.

lookingforward · December 2, 2012, 11:13am

Since this info is out there and, sooner or later, Bel will find it here is the data for 2010. It’s from the Gates work.
6 yr grad rates- class size
Asian 281 97.5
White 388 92.9
Hisp 125 84
Black 61 83.6
AI 20 85

shravas · December 2, 2012, 11:26am

This is false.

collegealum314 · December 2, 2012, 11:32am

@YZ: If you look at the proportion of USAMO qualifiers:National Merit Finalists at a high school which has a good number of both and then extrapolate it out to the entire pool of national merit finalists in the country, you can estimate the number of USAMO qualifiers that would have occurred if everyone was in an enriched environment. I’ve done it for my high school and got 450. I’m not using the full argument with the assumptions I’m making, but basically I’m using the National Merit Finalist status as an indication of academic talent that doesn’t require tiger parenting or an especially academic background by the parents.

I do think in general admissions standards influence how high school students spend their time, and that in itself is important. The less it is valued, the more spending time studying above and beyond the classroom takes a step toward the relevance of playing Dungeons and Dragons. We have been talking about the supergeniuses on this thread, but this can impact the people who are not quite as talented or advanced. Lots of talented kids do mental calculations on whether they can fill a certain niche at an elite school based. As people are saying, there are some that don’t win these prestigious academic awards due to parental background and not lack of talent. They probably could still do well at these competitions and it would help with their academic development. However, they may do a mental calculation that they are better off filling up their spare time with other activities. For example, MIT has some pretty unique classes (and I know this having been at several good universities;) a student may decide he/she has a better chance of getting in and being able to learn at MIT by being less academic in high school. A culture which doesn’t admire the type of academic level that USAMO qualification signifies will not just hurt the USAMO qualifiers, but tends to hurt the people more who show promise but aren’t fully developed. This argument doesn’t only apply to MIT or only STEM majors.

Like QM, I am getting MIT fatigue, so I’m going to step back from this thread now.

Someone asked QM earlier, “I see why this vexes you. But why can’t you just accept that there are some things out there that can’t be understood?”

This is not a philosophy which tends to sit well with a scientist.

marciemi · December 2, 2012, 11:36am

texaspg - ah, it’s the older son who’s all of 19 so maybe he’d qualify? Younger son is too busy with golf and music to have time for kinky sex!

And no, our HS had never heard of AMC, let alone AIME or USAMO. First time I’d seen these acronyms was on the MIT acceptance thread for MIT with my older son.

And I have to say that I’m kind of glad I hadn’t found these forums until after he was accepted. (I’d been on CC, but only on the Service Academy & ACT parts). Reading a thread like this would have probably convinced me that there was no reason for my boys to even try applying to a school like MIT and that they wouldn’t have a shot if they did. The more I read, the more I feel it was a miracle either of them (let alone both) got in!

lookingforward · December 2, 2012, 11:39am

^^ (But, at the same time, it’s not enough for a scientist to base on assumptions or “I think.” Or, having input from a few profs.)

Bay · December 2, 2012, 11:39am

May I remind you of the #1 Common App essay prompt? It is: “Evaluate a significant experience, achievement, risk you have taken, or ethical dilemma you have faced and its impact on you.”

This is a pretty broad prompt. It does not surprise me at all that there are 16/17 year olds in this country whose most significant, life-changing experience was their trip to Africa. There is nothing in the prompt requiring them to rationalize their feelings with immediate action, and again, why must it if taking on a project for Africa is not immediately practical? Gaining understanding and empathy for the conditions of others in the world can go a long way over the course of one kids’ lifetime. Immortalizing their feelings about it in the single most important essay they’ve ever written seems like a good first step to me.

collegealum314 · December 2, 2012, 11:41am

OK, one last post.

I’m not a mathematician but have taken a fair amount of advanced classes. I’m interested in how one solves an open problem in pure mathematics without taking a fair amount of college-level classes or self-studying them. Perhaps you are saying they are very advanced but didn’t make USAMO?

poetgrl · December 2, 2012, 11:45am

Maybe it was and maybe it wasn’t. That’s the thing with these schools. Who knows.

The people I’ve known who attended these particularly favorite CC schools, and I have known a few, have ranged from completely ordinary conversationalists to boring beyond belief to really dynamic and engaging. Some have been wildly successful and some have been kind of lackluster, just in general, and in specific, as well.

Sometimes when people get a bit too dreamy eyed over these places, I just want to remind everyone that we really don’t want our kids to “peak” at 18, that life is long, and all sorts of things will happen along the way: tragic, great, lucky, unlucky. Nobody gets out of here alive.

Good luck to everyone’s kids, but where they get into college is just not nearly as deterministic as people on CC want it to be. it is a moment in time, and then four years, another blink of an eye. Life is the real thing, and these educations may or may not prepare the kids to face what is coming their way, which is not going to be based on standardized test scores or anything else measurable for college admissions.

Teach your kids to shake hands, to look people in the eye. Teach them to write a thank you note. Teach them never to go to somebody’s house empty handed. Teach them a standard list of easy gifts. Teach them how to graciously pick up a check, how to tip, how to make an invitation, how to reciprocate, how to graciously turn down a date or invitation. Teach them to balance their check book, to go to the gym. Teach them to do at least one nice thing for somebody else every day.

Teach them to treat the guy at starbucks with all sorts of manners. These things matter, in the long run, a lot more than most of this generation understands. And it hurts them when they go look for a job, and it helps the kids who know, immeasurably.

Also, for God sake, teach them to dress when they leave the house, and what to wear to an interview, and teach your sons not to wear tennis shoes on dates. honestly. ;)

texaspg · December 2, 2012, 11:57am

marciemi - This new harvard club seems to have started with 30 members and the charter said something about adults exploring sexuality. So I am guessing 19 would qualify if Harvard allows MIT students into their clubs!

"Reading a thread like this would have probably convinced me that there was no reason for my boys to even try applying to a school like MIT and that they wouldn’t have a shot if they did. The more I read, the more I feel it was a miracle either of them (let alone both) got in! "

This is what concerns me about this thread, i.e., parents wondering if their kids only got in because some adcom followed quirky methods and ignored meritorious students as opposed to kids getting in on their own merits, whatever they may be.

You are not making it any easier when you mention golf!

Pizzagirl · December 2, 2012, 12:02pm

I don’t think they “judge them unworthy.” They just don’t want 300 of them all alike in their freshmen classes. There is room for all different types. The $10K world-charity-trip is neither a deal-maker or a deal-breaker. Some students come away able to talk about the experience in meaningful ways. Others don’t get beyond the platitudes of “we are all the same under the skin.”

Angry over the college admissions process

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