<p>I also think it’s unfair to compare the heavily structured day and long hours of high school students to that of college students. My son only participates in one EC and 3 nights out of 5 gets home close to 7pm. That doesn’t leave a lot of time for homework, dinner, etc and bedtime for 8hrs sleep. I can’t imagine if he were in more ECs and also had many advanced classes with the accompanying amount of homework. College life allows for much more flexibility in one’s schedule.</p>
<p>My kids love sports. They are the happiest when working out with their peers, going to games, meets, tournaments. I don’t get it as I am the complete opposite, but I can see their joy and enjoyment when they are in sports.</p>
<p>But except for the oldest, none of them are/were good enough where it was going to make any difference except as a space filled for extracurricular activities. And being a varsity athlete in high school and in the upper 10% of that group is a huge time commitment. Time that could be spent on school work and other academic endeavors. Two of mine would have been very good at debate. The teachers coaching and running those clubs tried hard to involve them. But they clearly preferred the sports. Sports that were pretty much end of the line for them once they went to college but, oh, how they enjoyed them.</p>
<p>So, what to do? Well, we kept the sports. We also kept the music . The joke in our family about my second kid was that he majored in ECs. He was a major player in athletics (but in a small school league), drama, music in high school. Not such a hot student. I don’t know if he would have been any better had I made him cut down his ECs and tried to “tiger mom” him into the academics morel Not enough roar in me. </p>
<p>When it comes to people, and children, it isn’t a 100% or even any return on effort when trying to make a swap on time. Just because a kid quits the sports that were taking 3 hours a day, every day does not mean you are going to get that time doing the academics. You might end up with the kid doing worse. Sometimes, sitting down and talking to your student will result in their making the choice themselves to devote more of their time to academics and perhaps giving up some other activity, but if the student is not primary in making that choice, the results many not be what is expected. </p>
<p>My one son really could have played college football. Just for the heck of it, he went out for the walk on spots and his speed and strength numbers were right up there. But he know at that point that he had to make some choices because the schedules were right in his face. Also tried out, made and had to turn down the traveling choir. His father, DH made a similar choice years ago regarding football. But they loved the sport and enjoyed it during high school and are grateful and happy they were able to do play those days when they so wanted to do so.</p>
<p>when a kid is spread too thin, yes, discuss it, but I think in most cases, the student has to make the final decision on what gets cut.</p>
<p>Let me also qualify ‘giving up’ passions for academics since I’m the one who brought it up. First of all, my D is very involved both in and out of school with her theater and music. She is involved in community theater and she takes private voice lessons. What she ‘gave up’ at school her senior year was her musical theater class and her vocal ensemble class. She was able to keep her theater production class. The main reason she ‘gave up’ was because her school did away with most zero periods and drastically cut down on the sixth period options. My daughter would gladly take seven periods if she could fit in all the classes she needed along with the ones she loved. She didn’t have this choice her senior year due to scheduling options available. The only AP Stats class at her school was at the same time as the Vocal Ensemble class. We are in CA where budget cuts have been more and more noticeable in insidious ways - mostly resulting in less options - especially at the top tier class level. She was not ‘forced’ to do anything. She chose to do it because she was that serious about getting into Oxy. She wanted to strengthen her application and as I mentioned, she went to her HS counselor on her own and made the changes. </p>
<p>The Oxy interviewer didn’t tell her to do this. She most likely could have been accepted to Oxy without doing that based on a conversation we had with an Oxy admissions rep (not an official interview - just a conversation following the tour.) </p>
<p>It was her choice! I was impressed that she made that choice as to me it determined an amazing depth of maturity and also her ability to look beyond her senior year to the future. She swapped vocal music for AP Stats - not an easy choice but in doing so she positioned herself as one of the top math students with a very good chance of winning the math award at her school this year and she strengthened her college app - something she made the decision to do on her own.</p>
<p>Clearly a scheduling conflict during the school day as detailed above is more understandable and explainable than dropping after school EC’s that you are saying are your “passion” but had to go because of the additional challenges of AP course work, standardized test prep, and college applications. Yes - students tell me this. When a school can admit <10% of applicants, it is these kids who can easily and happily juggle all these committments and have additional reserve that are favored in the admissions process.</p>
<p>“I also think it’s unfair to compare the heavily structured day and long hours of high school students to that of college students.”</p>
<p>-Many more challenges in college with much more needed time management skills. HS is much much easier in both time mangement and academic challenges. There is simply no comparison. My D. has graduated from college last May. As she pointed out, there is no comparison between HS and college as well as between college and Med. School.<br>
I am sorry for all kids who expected college to be walk in park in comparison to HS. It is completely the other way around academically, in number of EC’s, responsibilities of EC’s, amount of sleep and other responsibilities of simply taking care of yourself and to insure your well being which is pre-req. for the rest.</p>
<p>My experience was that college WAS a walk in the park compared to high school. Much less “locked in” class time. Some students aren’t used to the independence and can’t manage themselves, but there is a lot more free time (with the exception of varsity athletes) than in high school. My son managed a 20 hour a week job, classes and, well, the main EC was his social life…in college. Could never have done that in high school.</p>
<p>Colleges courses are not necessrily more rigorous than advanced HS courses. My kid’s HS grads repeatedly say their freshman year at their respective tippy-top is a breeze compared to what they had to do in HS.i</p>
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<p>If you have good time management skills (big “if”!), college can be more doable than hs. It’s all a matter of prioritization and organization. I also found that feeling more responsible and independent helps with many kids to feel more of an ownership of the process. </p>
<p>I had a ball in med school. Less time, it’s true, especially the last two years, but I still had so much fun. I loved residency too, strangely. It doesn’t have to be a grind-- it’s all in how you frame your life. That and coffee.</p>
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<p>I would be truly disappointed if I thought my freshman year was a breeze without academic challenges compared to high school. I would hope that most of these driven kids do feel that college is more rigorous and choose courses and ECs that make it so. </p>
<p>jaylynn - pass me some of those happy pills. Its not too common to hear someone say thay thought medical school was “fun” and they “loved” their residency. Rather, I had at least two residents/fellows tell me as a third year medical student to get out while I can before I reach the point of no return.</p>
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<p>No, actually. The kids who are favored in the admissions process are the Junior Olympians and the Carnegie Hall virtuosos and the Intel winners. If you think these accomplishments fall into place alongside a full slate of APs, leaving the students and their families with “easy and happy lives,” you haven’t been serving as the primary supporter of one of these super achievers. </p>
<p>Full disclosure: I interview for HYPS every year, and I consistently observe immense stresses involved for those going through the process at the highest levels.</p>
<p>YGD— I know, I know. I don’t know why my experience was so different than so many of my colleagues. Part of it was obviously my psychological makeup, I guess. I certainly met many “woe-is-me-I’m-so-overworked-and-so-special-pity-me” people. A lot of people seem to think they’re the only person who has ever become a physician. News flash— it ain’t that special. I also was not a person who wanted to be a doctor since kindergarten (those were/are some of the most boring docs I know).</p>
<p>A lot of it was that I found people both in med school and in residency who had a similar ethic–work hard, have fun, party hard (yes, that last part was occasionally regrettable, lol). I found what I was studying interesting. My residency was NOT a surgical one (that might have killed me)-- I was with great people in a field where the patients were often fun (pediatrics in a top children’s hospital). I was in love (my now husband was doing his radiology residency at the same time). Many factors-- but I really did have a great time.</p>
<p>'Colleges courses are not necessrily more rigorous than advanced HS courses. My kid’s HS grads repeatedly say their freshman year at their respective tippy-top is a breeze compared to what they had to do in HS.i "</p>
<p>-I woudl not rely on that. While some classes might be like that (like English in my D’s case, still very time consuming class where she learned nothing as she is simply very strong writer), most college classes are not. Many top HS kids, valedictorians from private preps barely keep up and many change their original professional path. I am NOT talking about Ivy/Elite colleges and public HS’s, I know about top kids coming from very rigorous private prep. HS to state public colleges. Those survive who adjusted well because of their very busy schedules in HS with many activities taking place on a daily basis. Many others were overhelmed and fell out, changed their professional pursuits to something else. I am not trying to scare, but rather be prepared to work very hard, adjusting to higher rigor from the very beginning, manage time as it is a key.</p>
<p>MiamiDAP- Sounds like your daughter’s classmates at Miami Ohio came from some weak high schools are weren’t very prepared.</p>
<p>Except for certain invitations to join an adult professional group on stage, isn’t Carnegie Hall “pay to play” for most kids or kid groups? Set me straight, if needed. And we dont have any auto favoritism for junior olympians, kids training for the Olympics or even mid-level Intel participation- unless the whole picture of the kid is already pretty darned matchy. </p>
<p>There’s no one secret way to dramatically promote your admissions chances. Among all the other tasks, you’re trying to create an impression that you are ready for that college and its level of challenges. That can mean different things for different kids, different colleges, different majors. It all has to make sense. Dropping a vocal class for AP stats, for a potential math major who already has a ton of hs and outside performance experiences…makes sense to me. (Granted, we only know a slice here.)</p>
<p>Kids who juggle lots of ECs and still perform well-- the holistic impressions still depend on what it is they are doing, what results they accomplish, perspective and fit- not just the volume of silly things they list. (And, there are lots of time-robbers they list.) IOW, quality not quantity, the judgment and perspective a kid can show through choices.</p>
<p>I have S in college and D in HS.</p>
<p>College = work is harder and more intense but there is more flexibility on when to study. Library is open M-F 7am to 9pm (10pm). Sat (9-5pm) Sun (12-5pm) Instructors have flexible office hours can meet with them 1-1. Can go to the bathroom w/o permission.
Choose your courses, classes, teachers (what you love and when to take them)</p>
<p>High School = more classes, less time to study since library/resources closes at 2:30 M-F, need permission for everything. EC after school only (prime study time) Teachers have limited or no available office hours/planning time. Classmates who just don’t care and are disruptive. No decision on your teacher.</p>
<p>My S,W and I had better GPAs in college than H.S. If I wanted to go use the computers at 2am in the morning (1980s) the computer center was open.</p>
<p>@lookingforward,
I think in this context, Carnegie hall virtuoso might not necessarily mean a student who has played at Carnegie hall (yes, a lot of those are groups that pay to play there). Instead, I think it means any kid who does music at a very high level, for example, at a conservatory’s pre college division. Many of these kids spend several hours a day practicing, carry a full load of AP courses, and spend all day Saturday at their music school and still get good grades/ scores.</p>
<p>Besides luck - which I think has a healthy measure of impact - I think writing essays that say something unique and age appropriate in a natural voice (but spelled correctly and grammatical) - and real involvement in at least one thing - do help in the holistic admission schools. I am convinced my daughter’s years of dance training - currently in a pre-professional company and able to do all kinds of dance - stood out enough (arts supplement) to get her application a second look at the competitive LAC’s where she was accepted. She dances about 15 hours a week in addition to normal high level academics. She has given up a lot in the way of normal recreation to do it – but she is also protective of other free time and doesn’t fill it up with all kinds of clubs, etc. She does a few academic EC’s … NHS and NAHS - and did do theater too… These (in addition to music and athletics) are the kinds of activities that colleges know will contribute to their community. In her case she did them because it was really what she loved to do and plans to continue … and I think that also came through in her essays etc.</p>
<p>I think with her time management skills… college will be manageable if not easy. I’m not sure if colleges should consider such talents… but I’m pretty sure it helped her get accepted and get merit aid.</p>
<p>"
I would be truly disappointed if I thought my freshman year was a breeze without academic challenges compared to high school. I would hope that most of these driven kids do feel that college is more rigorous and choose courses and ECs that make it so. "</p>
<p>I have a different philosophy. College is enough of an adjustment, I wanted my kids to spend their first year establishing themselves socially and having fun. I had no problems if, in choosing between 2 courses, they took the slightly easier one. It’s not a race. The next level up will still be there. When I talk to them, I want to hear that they’re enjoying their classes and having fun. I made the mistake of being too much of a gunner; they can learn from my mistake.</p>
<p>It seems no one is angry anymore, and this survey of admissions officers (posted elsewhere on CC) could make parents happier, at least I thought essays were important but not that much anymore.</p>
<p>[New</a> research on how elite colleges make admissions decisions | Inside Higher Ed](<a href=“http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/04/09/new-research-how-elite-colleges-make-admissions-decisions]New”>New research on how elite colleges make admissions decisions)</p>
<p>Don’t kid yourselves, demographics play a HUGE part in admissions. We found this out the hard way.</p>