Angry over the college admissions process

Parents Forum
921

<p>It’s the same old whining that permeates CC. They do admissions based on scores – that’s not fair to kids who have other talents and don’t test well. They don’t do admissions based on scores – that’s not fair to kids who are perfect scorers. They advantage legacies – that’s not fair to less well-to-do people. They advantage URM’s … that’s not fair to well-to-do people. They advantage athletes … that’s not fair to the klutzy and uncoordinated. They advantage kids with leadership EC’s … that’s not fair to shy kids or kids who are not neurotypical. </p>

<p>Meanwhile, grown adults who have gone through hiring processes themselves as either employee or employer seem never to understand what constitutes a holistic view, and seem to be perenially dumb about the fact that when you’ve got only X number of minutes to impress an adcom, you do it by telling some story about yourself and what you have to offer and why they should want you and why you are different from the crowd, not by tying a ribbon around your SAT scores and EC’s and saying “here I am, where’s my reward for being a good student.”</p>

922

<p>^ That’s the whole darned thing in two paragraphs. Great post!</p>

923

<p>+1 to Pizzagirl. That is brilliant.</p>

924

<p>Brava, Pgirl!</p>

925

<p>Pretty old thread! I was hoping the two parents posting originally were coming back to update us on what their kids were doing.</p>

926

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<p>Yes, Santa, I was very good this year and the toys I got are OK, but where’s my pony? I DESERVED A PONY!!! AN HYP PONY!!! ;)</p>

927

<p>Just because there seems to be too much unanimity on this thread, I thought I’d add a comment: The fact is that HYPSM are admitting <em>crowds</em> of people. With the possible exception of Princeton, the admits at each university, in each year, number 1000+. Why an exceptionally well qualified student should have to stand out from the crowd in order to join a crowd is not so clear to me.</p>

<p>People probably need to tell Oprah’s staff why they are different from the crowd in order to be selected for “Oprah’s favorite things” show. People who are going to college are, ultimately . . . well, going to college. Different type of thing.</p>

<p>When only a single individual can be selected, e.g., for a single job, then I think a different kind of reasoning applies. No one can really be certain that he/she is the best qualified individual of all for a particular job (or the best possible marriage partner). On the other hand, it is not unreasonable, in my view, for a person who is among the top 1000 in his/her year’s cohort (viewed holistically) to realize that.</p>

<p>I don’t really buy the argument that there are very smart students whose classmates don’t recognize that they are smart. They might not realize that any given student has a 4.0 UW, a 6.7 W GPA, or whatever, but unless the student arrives in a school system senior year for the first time, I think the classmates can actually detect intellectual ability, at least usually.</p>

<p>Example in point: First grade (we live in a rather stable district). QMP comes home from school and announces “[Fill in name] uses forks.” Meaning, in chess. Yes, he was taught (and obviously QMP knew enough to recognize a fork when seeing it), and yes there are many smart kids who don’t have that advantage–but if one is with the same students for any length of time, I think it’s fairly hard to keep one’s light under a bushel. If it doesn’t become obvious in one way, it will become obvious in another.</p>

928

<p>Theoretically, people are competing for a specific number of seats in each school which may be further reduced by the specific department someone might be interested in. It makes zero sense to blame some group which may have a better shot at getting in saying they may be less qualified. </p>

<p>To add diversity, can we have some girls start griping about not getting into liberal arts colleges while more boys are having an easier time getting in?</p>

929

<p>I just advised my Asian nephew to apply to LACs because he would have a better chance of getting in. You have to work with you have.</p>

930

<p>For those that don’t know, QMP stands for Quantmech prime, Quantmech’s son.</p>

931

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<p>I think the bigger question is: how smart is smart enough when you move from a small pond to a national competition? Top 3-5% is generally considered pretty darn smart. Yet there is only enough room in the top 15-20 schools for about 1% of high school graduates every year. However one defines the rules of what constitutes “the very best,” in the end, a lot of kids find themselves as runners-up for the first time in their lives. Of course it hurts; it’s also a growing experience.</p>

932

<p>Why an exceptionally well qualified student should have to stand out from the crowd in order to join a crowd is not so clear to me.</p>

<p>Because the majority of those who get past first cut are somewhat exceptional, if we are talking top colleges. The top of this group is a vast number who got mostly A’s for four years, maybe a B or two, in a rigorous courseload and with great scores. They will have a typical pattern of hs leadershp and sports, a typical range of other activities.</p>

<p>It’s not about their hs classmates recognizing their superiority. That works in the kid’s hs. But, now we’re talking college, the next leap. It’s about what adcoms- seasoned pro’s - stranger adults- will think of the app, in light of their experience, expectations, and the institution’s needs. So, the kid who’s BMOC because he got great stats, led a club, did x,y,z, may not be as special, simply by default, in that 25-35,000 pool of kids. (If you just want to look at the culled group, it’s probably still 15k+.)</p>

<p>Add to that, all adcoms can go on is the CA- they are not teachers who know him and can fill in the blanks. So, it’s not all about stats and not all about even the usual things kids do- Key Club, vol work, the team, the extras. It’s also about how the kid pulls it into an effective self-presentation. (That’s the task-at-hand, after all.) </p>

<p>Is this a kid who stretched himself, in ways beyond grades/scores/number of APs and the activities at the hs? Is this a kid who reflects a mature perspective, a certain hardiness and curiosity through his short answers and essays? Does he seem interesting, the sort who will engage on campus, make a great roommate, try a variety of new experiences, contribute and thrive? In the whole CA, does he fit himself to this college, show he sees his fit there, in that major, (or even knows what a fit would be?) Or, go generic?</p>

<p>In the end, liking an applicant isn’t much different than liking your kid’s friends- some may be great achievers, hard workers- but your opinions, your gut reactions, your trust, depends on a whole view.</p>

933

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<p>Since I come from a system where students are basically admitted by the numbers, and where students tend to go to schools close to home, this is something I am familiar with.</p>

<p>Leaving legacies out of it for the moment, if I am looking for the best of the best, I would look at the major; if I am looking for the best of the best connected, I would look at the school.</p>

<p>This brings up another point worth mentioning. If the elites are not full of scions of the ruling class, the plebeians would not be clamouring for admission in the first place, would they? What delicious irony.</p>

934

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<p>How to make them all happy or shut them all up? Show them how decision is made. Or lottery of those who make first cut.</p>

935

<p>They’ve told you a million times how it’s made. It’s in the moment, assembling an entire class. They don’t know til they’re sitting there reading the essays of the tuba player from Wyoming, the student leader from Exeter, and the thespian from Miami who will strike their fancy. It’s not a formula, which is what you want. Get over it. If the hot girl of your dreams rejects you, does she need to tell you why?</p>

936

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SAT scores not good enough? ;)</p>

937

<p>lookingforward - great post. My nephew is writing his essays. I took the liberty to send him your post.</p>

938

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Credit scores not good enough.</p>

939

<p>Regarding this statement about the SAT from page 54: “It’s quite possible to be a mediocre student and get great scores.”</p>

<p>Well, that depends on the definition of “mediocre student” and “great scores” doesn’t it? Since we’ve been talking about busywork and craft projects, do we mean by “mediocre student” the kid who has mastered the course material but can’t be bothered with doing homework or that creative nonsense, so his grades take a hit? If so, then perhaps that’s a correct statement. But no one is born knowing geometry theorems or the meaning of the word “censorious.” One needs a certain academic level to score very well. None of the NMF’s or commended students in S or D’s year were poor students. Only one kid out of both groups was somewhat of a surprise–the rest were the top students who were known to work hard in the honors and AP classes. You simply don’t accumulate enough reading comprehension skills and vocabulary knowledge, or math problem solving ability in the remedial or lowest classes to get a “great” score.</p>

<p>Secondly, what is a great score? I’d have said 2250 and up, because that level seems to be what it takes to be a NMF or to get into the best schools, barring some hook like being a top football player. If you can be a mediocre student and score above 2200, wouldn’t more students do that? As it is, kids take prep classes and study like mad to get those scores.</p>

<p>IMO, the SAT is crucial to weed out the bogus 4.0’s from really easy schools. At a summer program D met some kids with really high GPA’s from easy schools. These kids did not report the kind of high school environment D experienced, which was hours and hours of homework and study in really tough classes. Several of these friends ended up becoming vals and sals at their respective. Yet their SAT’s were around 1900 or 2000 and thus none of them got into top schools.</p>

940

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<p>I think that you have to be a good student to go from National Merit Semi-Finalist to Finalist. PSAT gets you to Semi-Finalist; an application that includes grades gets you to Finalist. And Semi-Finalist don’t get the scholarships and I don’t think that you’d be seeing them recognized anywhere.</p>

<p>I don’t think that the skills to do well on the SAT exactly correlate to the skills to get good grades. I wasn’t a bad student in high school, but my grades did not math my SAT’s. I’ve always been a really good test taker. I struggled a lot in school with organization and busy work. SAT’s are also fairly simplified from what a lot of top students are taking. The SAT 1 material was not what I found difficult in high school, and most of it was covered before then. I had a good friend in school who was the total opposite. She was a really good student, and very smart, and really just not a good a good standardized test taker. She was a very good applicant otherwise and I’m sure her SAT’s hurt her, but I don’t think they said anything about her application. </p>

<p>If it’s not obvious, I put very little stock in SAT’s saying much of anything except in extremem situations.</p>