Angry over the college admissions process

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<p>How it worked out remains in the eye of the beholder. What was the cost of this “working out?” A solid heap of scorn and ridicule? The successful kid getting in the dream school but having to wear that “Tigermommybaby” scarlet letter on her forehead? </p>

<p>Perhaps it worked for the selfish and self-absorbed lady in the form of recognition, and perhaps, financial windfall, and in a way it might have worked for the little slaves who survived that Chua bootcamp, but again at what price! </p>

<p>Is getting into the Ivy League worth it?</p>

<h1>981</h1>

<p>While I agree with what xiggi said, I do want to emphasize that everyone can and should have his/her own priority list. As long as they are happy with the “price” and the “reward”, I am happy for them.</p>

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<p>My son stuck his neck out and had a genuine “failure” which he wrote about in one of his essays. He found out about the AP Siemens Award about 30 days before the AP tests were scheduled to start; to win, you need to have the most 5’s in math and science AP tests in your state before your last year of high school. Since he was graduating in 3 years, he had to qualify for this entirely in his sophomore year – and Illinois is much more competitive than, say, Indiana or Louisiana.</p>

<p>At this point, he was already taking 9 classes (with college and online) plus he had started teaching himself AB Calculus in Pre-Calc with the principal’s permission in February (he had to pay attention enough to also learn pre-calc and ace the tests). We determined that he would probably need 7 AP 5’s to qualify (actual points scored – AP internal data – are used to break ties). A secondary goal was to become a National AP Scholar in his sophomore year; only 19 students nationwide had done so as sophomores the previous year.</p>

<p>He was already enrolled in AP Stats, AP Physics B and AP US History and had previously taken two semesters of general chemistry at the local university, where he scored first among 90 college classmates. So, in 4 weeks in his spare time, he decided to teach himself half of the calculus textbook (part of AB and all of BC), both Physics C exams and Environmental Science. And he got permission from his counselor to take 8 AP exams.</p>

<p>I was amused by the idea, but figured he would come to his senses after a few days – there just wasn’t enough time. After a few days, I tried to talk him out of it, but he was determined. One long weekend I watched him “absorb” Physics C Mechanics and was actually starting to believe he might pull this off: For two afternoons, he went through a semester’s worth of material, never writing down a formula, just staring at it for a few minutes and committing its relationship to other formulas to memory; never doing a sample problem until the last day when he took some actual former AP exams and got strong 5’s.</p>

<p>He almost made it, but did not have enough time to read the environmental science textbook. He got six 5’s and a 4 in environmental science, plus a 3 in US History. His teacher had finished history up to the mid 1950’s, and that was the year after Reagan died, so there lots of Reagan-era questions that could have been Ancient Greece as far as he was concerned. Had he gotten a 4 in history, he would have qualified as a sophomore National AP Scholar, but he didn’t have time to "fill in the gaps’ because he was learning 4 new subjects.</p>

<p>This is about as legitimate an over-reach failure as a high schooler can achieve, but it wasn’t enough for MIT. Neither was his 36 ACT, dual 800 SAT IIs, 1/400 class rank, 7 winning ribbons in local math competitions and “best student of my career” letters of recommendation. I don’t know what the heck MIT really wanted, but my son fulfilled every description they had in their viewbook and still didn’t get in.</p>

<p>MIT was his dream school at the time, and his first rejection with its early 3/14 decision date. But by then he had already been offered large scholarships at UIUC and received two early-write acceptances at Williams and Amhert, who apparently approved of his efforts, based on their customized letters. In the end, he was also accepted to Brown and chose to attend there, and it appears to really be his dream school, with challenging math and science classes in a broader liberal arts environment with quirky good humor and self-directed, sometimes rather eclectic, classmates.</p>

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<p>Of course, but there is one downside. Extreme behavior such as Chua’s also creates copycats or offers vindication to the parents who abide by similar standards and rules. The difference is that we will never know if the Chua kid(s) might have had similar results without the “program” and easily gained admission. It’s good to remember the financial and academic status of the parents, which was clearly superior to most. </p>

<p>In so many words, we will never know if the child(ren) got in because of the “prep” or … in spite of their Mom’s efforts and publicity stunts.</p>

<p>OMG, LoremIpsum, how did you raise such a slacker! He almost failed his … failure. :)</p>

<p>Your son’s accomplishments are extremely impressive, LoremIpsum. In my opi
nion, in any rational admissions scheme, he would have been admitted everywhere. Glad he is enjoying Brown & best wishes for the future! Still, since you brought up his “failure” essay, I have to remark that I would offer ten to one odds that the non-failure failure was the sole reason MIT didn’t take him.Of course, their no-call policy prevents me from having to make good on this bet. Sent from my phone-excuse typos.</p>

<p>^Right, I was just about to write the same thing.</p>

<p>He would have been better off tanking calculus on purpose and getting a “B”, and then writing about how he learned from the experience. Better luck next time!</p>

<p>Pizzagirl, – “In other news, the sun sets in the west. I hardly think anyone was unaware of this advantage . . .”. </p>

<p>What I do not think most people understand though is that when you get done with preferences at most Ivies and other top small universities (ie 4 to 6 k), you are left with just over half the slots for “academic merit” and likely less if you count ED as a preference. 10 - 15% for athletics, 10-15% legacies, and 20% or so for URMs.</p>

<p>People-- these MIT rejections you are stewing about merely reflect too many bodies for too few seats. That’s all. Two kids with identical stats, recommendations, interests, etc. One gets in, one doesn’t. On the margin, the kid from a small town in Wyoming may get the nod over the kid from Winnetka or Scarsdale or Menlo Park. On the margin, the kid who plays the bassoon and not the violin may fill a strategic void in one of the many performance groups on campus. </p>

<p>Too few seats. Repeat after me.</p>

<h1>984</h1>

<p>“In so many words, we will never know if the child(ren) got in because of the “prep” or … in spite of their Mom’s efforts and publicity stunts.”</p>

<p>Why using “got in” as the measure? And why does it matter how the child(ren) got in? In my 15+ years academic career, I have seen good and not so good students from all social, econimical, and cultural backgrounds. Personally, I have not seen any consistently better/worse way(s) than others, including tiger mom’s.</p>

<p>As an alum, I wish that is all that was going on, Blossom. </p>

<p>Without knowing where the OP of this thread applied, your assessment was what I thought myself of their situation. </p>

<p>However, I have been to these universities as a student or in a working capacity, heard the rhetoric from admissions people, and seen many many people both in the admit and reject box. And it is my and some others’ view that there is some irrationality or absurdity (logic based on some weird assumptions) in the process.</p>

<h1>983</h1>

<p>As far as I have been informed, elite colleges DO NOT like high-achieving HS students trying too hard on APs, SATs, ACT, etc. MIT might have negatively viewed your son’s AP award efforts, successful or not.</p>

<p>Kids of legacies-- not all their legacy parents chose high income occupations. Certainly not at a level that could afford multiple full pays. </p>

<p>Btw, there are also threads where posters tell a kid he can call the college and ask why he didn’t get in. Or, they claim they did. There’s little an AO can explain.</p>

<p>But, it is very important to come across as more than an academic superstar. I find it hard to believe, after years, that people still see admissions at the most competitive schools to be all about stat performance.</p>

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<p>You think? Then maybe we should be grateful! My son was provided with a free airplane ticket to visit Brown and was convinced that it was truly the school for him after the first day – even over MIT, had he been accepted. All in all, it’s probably best that he didn’t have to chose!</p>

<p>For what it’s worth, he applied via Questbridge, so his essay was not in reply to the standard MIT question, which he never saw and didn’t need to answer. His point was that he could still have easily won the Siemens AP Award by simply staying in high school for a 4th year, but it wasn’t worth changing his plans: obsession with “winning” was not important to him, just taking on challenges and learning from them. In my opinion, it the essay helped set him apart, because a lot of high achievers either: 1) fail to take risks; or 2) obsess about winning at all costs (e.g., the kid who simply has to retake a 2350 SAT).</p>

<p>Collegealum, one of my kids went to MIT and we were lucky enough to get to spend time with a large circle of friends for various reasons. I am sure that there are thousands of kids who are denied admission who for sure “deserved” to be there and would have made fantastic contributions to the campus. But I don’t believe I’ve ever met an MIT kid who seems to have gotten there by some cosmic error.</p>

<p>Yes, I’ve met a couple of clunkers at Harvard. (Most of whom have shared the last name of a library, lab, or major research center.) Ditto for some of the other elite colleges. I occasionally interview someone who went to elite U and I think, “Gosh, must have been the bassoon playing legacy whose uncle endowed a dorm that we always read about”. 'Cause there don’t seem to be any way that said individual got in via brains, work ethic, or other contributions to humanity.</p>

<p>But I don’t believe I’ve ever met an obviously underqualified MIT graduate.</p>

<p>To what do you allude?</p>

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<p>Well, that measure is the only one that applies to Mrs. Chua. After all, for her, getting in was the ONLY element that mattered. And, also the only thing that matters to the small army of parents who believe in the merits of a similar academic and social bootcamp. </p>

<p>Actually, there might be something along the lines of vicarious expectations, but that might be a stretch.</p>

<p>re PCH’s comment: kids who work too hard to present themelves as outliers, all academics, all specifically chosen challenges based on their own goals, all the time, lose some attractiveness. You really have to take MITChris’s advice to heart. </p>

<p>As for Chua’s D, do we know her qualifications? Or are we assuming?</p>

<p>Blossom – “Too few seats. Repeat after me.”</p>

<p>Yes, and some wonder why that is the case and one reason is legacies. For example, Harvard has recently had a 30% admit rate for legacies compared to an overall rate of 7% or less, while for many years the legacy admit rate at Princeton has been between 34 and 47%.</p>

<p>From the Crimson, May 11, 2011:</p>

<p>“Harvard’s acceptance rate for legacies has hovered around 30 percent—more than four times the regular admission rate—in recent admissions cycles, Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid William R. Fitzsimmons ’67 told The Crimson in an interview this week.”</p>

<p>From the Daily Princetonian, May 12, 2010</p>

<p>The University has admitted between 34 and 47 percent of legacy applicants over the last 17 years, maintaining the proportion of the class made up of alumni children at a steady 10–15 percent, Rapelye [then Dean of Admissions] said."</p>

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<p>MIT may well have negatively viewed the attempt, but then why suggest in their literature that a willingness to take risks was important? This was an attempt to win a contest with the odds stacked against you, not an obsession with re-taking a standardized test over and over.</p>

<p>Alternatively, MIT may have concluded that my son was too independent minded to become a good team player. Or they preferred to fill their low-come quota with URMs and first-generation college students.</p>

<p>At least 3 other colleges were impressed with my son’s efforts because they came out and told him so in their customized letters. Clearly, it’s not a generalized “elite colleges” thing.</p>

<p>I am bothered only because MIT’s literature does not match up with their true desires. On the other hand, I am fairly happy with the top-school application process overall, because it suggests that if a student does a decent job of showing his personality in his essays and his achievements, the adcoms will be smart enough to find those that really fit into their culture. Many kids may not end up where they thought they wanted to go, but most will end up somewhere that they can really call home.</p>

<p>Too few seats is still simple math. 25-35k apps for 2000 admits. No matter what anyone says about legacies, the overwhelming first issue is there.</p>