Angry over the college admissions process

Pizzagirl · November 20, 2012, 8:51pm

But the only way that the data would prove to be meaningful is if, indeed, there were uniformly applied points being given: being president of student council is 10 points, having the lead in the school play is 8 points, being on a varsity team is 15 points, playing the tuba is 5 points, etc. I don’t know what part of this is so hard to grasp for people - there’s no such thing. Being president of student council might be an important part of Johnny’s profile, and yet when it comes to Susie’s profile, it leaves everyone cold. Being a tuba player might be just the thing for Sally, but be irrelevant for Bob.

Because THAT’S NOT HOW PEOPLE EVALUATE PEOPLE. Good lord, when you people go to cocktail parties, do you decide who is of interest to you by methodically evaluating them on credentials, or do you look to see whom you spark with?

It blows my mind that people who are allegedly so smart don’t get this. It is common sense 101.

And face it, lake42ks. You want “data” because you want to reduce it down to a regression formula so you can channel your kid to do X, Y and Z. Guess what, the moment that tuba playing becomes the hook is the moment that elite schools decide they don’t want any more tuba players.

What’s so intimidating about the concept of – be yourself, and be interesting about it? Why the desperate fear to find “the formula”?

Pizzagirl · November 20, 2012, 8:54pm

So, if all the unqualified athletes / legacies / URM’s are crowding out the smarter students who “should have” been admitted …
Where do those students wind up,
and why aren’t you trying to send your kid there instead?

I mean, it’s kind of stupid to claim that the student body is watered down and then be willing to cut off your right arm for your kid to go there.

I love how in these discussions, the deserving kids who get crowded out just magically disappear and go poof. It’s not like they go to Tufts instead of Harvard or anything. Nope, once they’re crowded out from Harvard, they are as good as invisible.

mathmom · November 20, 2012, 9:00pm

My oldest did the “take it or leave it” approach, and while I thought his chances were better at Harvard than MIT (school Naviance, legacy, and the fact that he applied the year Harvard announced they planned to expand engineering), we still thought it was amusing that the admissions results fell out the way they did. On the whole I’d say he did a little worse than his stats suggested. And I’d say that’s because holistic essays were at play and I’d say the soft parts of his application were good for a comp sci guy, but not outstanding.

OTOH my younger son, was much more aware of what each school was looking for and tailored each application to some extent. Sometimes it backfired (he took a risk with the essay at Georgetown theorizing that they’d never accept him with a vanilla essay) - it didn’t get him in there, but that same essay tweaked got him into Chicago - an uberreach according to his stats. On the whole he did a little better than we expected, but he didn’t apply anywhere that didn’t make sense based on his interests at the time he applied. But he did perhaps emphasize being an active citizen at Tufts, while he came off as a little more quirky at Chicago. (And also just happened to be familiar with Chicago culture from an aunt and uncle although he is not technically a legacy.)

lookingforward · November 20, 2012, 9:02pm

I think most of us agree more than disagree. I just don’t see recognizing the assets and image a school touts, then crafting the right app, as a sellout. Just as one should look for good matches, programs that work for you and the right environment, including location, social and extracurricular, now you’re dealing with the college app and should make your best presentation.

Yes, you should be yourself, but in “being themselves” many have trouble assessing the impression they may make, in the way they present.

Btw, both of mine wrote essays on one of the deadly topics.

LoremIpsum · November 20, 2012, 9:50pm

Sure, but I think most of us agreeing here are CC veterans who have been through this whole process and seen that it largely tends to work out in the end, even when individual results leave us wondering what the adcoms were smoking that particular day.

Death of a pet? In the end people are the same everywhere? Do tell!

Pizzagirl · November 20, 2012, 10:12pm

[quote]
Does Questbridge go mostly by income? I would imagine there could be some kids from highly educated backgrounds that might be at an advantage intellectually, whose parents for whatever reason are low income. Some might think that is not fair.

[quote]

There was a double-legacy-Princeton poster on here some time ago whose Princeton-educated parents had gone into some kind of social work and who was consequently low income.

QuantMech · November 20, 2012, 10:24pm

Just catching up a little bit. But in reply to blossom #989, I am happy to apply your “too few seats” analysis to HYPS. On the other hand, I think that MIT is different. It is hard to find a major there that does not require some substantial quantitative skill. Also, it is my experience that the best mathematicians and physicists I know are extremely smart–not the top 10,000 per year category, but much rarer than that.

I do not think that the “too few seats” explanation can account for the following situation, which I believe to exist in MIT admissions: The 7th grade SAT M score of one applicant from is 100 points higher than the 11th (or 12th grade) SAT M score of another applicant. The first is rejected and the second accepted. Both belong to the same demographic group. The first applicant does not have any disqualifying characteristics of character or personality; this is substantiated by cases where an applicant in the first category was rejected by MIT, but admitted to Harvard.

This is not a “too few seats” scenario. This is something else. I think it’s a mistake. As mentioned frequently, QMP did not apply to MIT. It’s not personal. However, I empathize with the parents whose stellar students were not admitted to MIT–even if, in the end, they are happier elsewhere.

Now, it’s true that MIT is an engineering school even more than it is a science/math school (mens et manus), and the characteristics that make an outstanding engineer are a bit different from the characteristics that make an outstanding scientist, despite a high degree of overlap. But strong quantitative skills are required for excellence in engineering, too.

LoremIpsum · November 20, 2012, 10:32pm

One interesting thing about Questbridge is that the average stats of those accepted during the early decision “match” round are a fair amount lower than the average stats of those accepted regular decision. It seems that priority is given to those with the best “overcoming adversity” stories. Logically one would expect top colleges to use this program to check off multiple boxes in their stats (number of URMs, first generation college, Pell Grant qualifier) and to grab those candidates in the shortest supply at the minimum standard the college will accept.

Other candidates get their fair shot, but it’s hardly an easy-access backdoor into the elite schools; not-quite-middle-class kids with educated parents need to have stats compatible with the general population accepted at the school.

QuantMech · November 20, 2012, 10:44pm

Re blossom #995: I have some doubts about the MIT students who fail introductory physics or math. It’s not a high fraction of the class (unlike Caltech in the olden days), but I think it’s a non-negligible fraction. I don’t believe that they are all under-represented minorities and women.

bovertine · November 20, 2012, 10:45pm

Is this something you know about from personal experience? I’ve got to think this has got to be extremely rare. I suspect there are very few MIT students who scored under 650 on their SAT math, and I can’t imagine there are huge numbers of 7th graders scoring over 750 and still getting rejected by MIT years later, unless of course they did nothing comparable in the 6 intervening years.
How often do you think this happens?

QuantMech · November 20, 2012, 10:49pm

lookingforward #997, I don’t doubt that Amy Chua’s D1’s accomplishments in themselves would put her solidly in the “admit” pile. But I suspect that applicants of similar accomplishments were turned down. Legacy might account in part for the difference. Also, perhaps the daughter is charming and fascinating. Perhaps money played a role, and the same financial situation worked equally well for the obscure applicants.

I was being a bit facetious, but I doubt that Amy Chua sent her book to a publisher for just one reason–she was probably playing multiple angles.

QuantMech · November 20, 2012, 11:01pm

Pizzagirl, post #1004: Thanks. I too have found your posts interesting, although we have some substantial areas of disagreement.

You are right that I took the question quite literally. In the same vein that Jack Sparrow says, “Pirate!”, I will say, “Scientist!” and perhaps an overly earnest one at that.

Also, I should add that based on the post by Lorem Ipsum, perhaps the question wasn’t asked by MIT at all, but by Questbridge–in which case, I retract that part of my objection.

Still, I would have to wonder about an applicant who chose to write about failure-lite in response to this question, about as much as I would wonder about the faux-failure group. If a student writes about something that is objectively a failure, but in an area that does not impact his/her self-image at all, then I think the answer gives less insight into the applicant and holds less predictive power. For example, suppose a student is cut from a sports team and writes about that. If the student thought that it would be fun to play the sport, a good diversion, a way of keeping fit, a way of strengthening teamwork, and yet the student is not really wrapped up in participating in the sport, then I would view this as a way of “dodging” the question.

I don’t hold a “fixed qualities” view of personality/character. I think that it’s possible for a person to demonstrate incredible perseverance at something that really matters to that person, yet to give up fairly quickly on something that doesn’t really matter to him/her.

Finally, while I have always enjoyed various adages about the “examined life,” I think it is important to keep in mind that quite a lot of science is about nature, and not about self-reflectivity. As mentioned multiple times, HYPS can (and actually should) use different criteria from MIT’s.

lookingforward · November 20, 2012, 11:10pm

QM, still trying to make this hierarchical.
Why not accept both? Too few seats. But isn’t the 7th grade SAT kid special? Maybe not.

What mistake? 
[In</a> Praise Of Holistic Admissions | MIT Admissions](<a href=“http://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/in-praise-of-holistic-admissions]In”>In Praise Of Holistic Admissions | MIT Admissions)

lake42ks · November 20, 2012, 11:14pm

I think people today use data in a much more sophisticated way or ways. I don’t think any parents here on CC is as uninformed as that. Fairness is not about any individual and likelihood is what data tell. My own kids are fine and that’s not the point.

I think that’s a good advice, and lookingforward has a good point too regarding presentation.

Pizzagirl · November 20, 2012, 11:16pm

Ah, here’s where it gets interesting. Because I think a student could write about the burning-of-the-first-apple-pie, or the turned-down-by-the-homecoming-queen in ways that do reveal a lot about the applicant. Even if the applicant objectively knows and understands that in the grand scheme of things, the burnt apple pie and rejected love offering don’t mean anything. Or with your sports-team example – I don’t think the student has to have been fired-up about the sport to write about failing at it. It could have been losing a ping pong match to a younger sibling, not failing to make varsity soccer.

I think there is a level of symbolism that we’re talking about here which has very little to do with the actual act of failure being discussed.

I’m also struck by the comment about the answer “holding less predictive power.” That’s not the point of the essay at all, IMO. They aren’t reading the essays to say, “Well, Johnny got knocked down but he got up again – so I predict he’ll be fine when he gets his first C.”

texaspg · November 20, 2012, 11:16pm

Forget legacy. Why would any college with a top law school ignore the daughter of two well known tenured law professors’ daughter? At least in the case of Yale, it would be like saying you guys can leave now.

QuantMech · November 20, 2012, 11:20pm

bovertine, #1032: At a guess, I would say that the scenario I’ve indicated [7th grade SAT math score of rejected MIT applicant 100 points higher than 11th grade SAT math score of accepted student + continued fast growth by the student who scored high in 7th grade] happens about 20 times a year, maybe slightly fewer.

So among 1000+ acceptances, it’s not a big deal; but to those 20, it does matter, at least to some extent.

I don’t have hard evidence on all aspects of the statement in a single year. My statement is a probabilistic one, based on combining the MIT Common Data Set info + posts on the MIT forum since I joined CC (including quite a number by MIT admissions bloggers, MIT interviewers, and the official MIT representative to CC) + the MIT admissions blogs and official site posts + knowledge of the number of high scorers on SAT M in 7th grade (there are more 800’s at that age than you might guess) + some limited info on friends of QMP.

QuantMech · November 20, 2012, 11:30pm

It’s become pretty clear that the philosophy expressed in “In Praise of Holistic Admissions” is more or less what MIT admissions thinks.

I don’t see how anyone could argue [much] with the thought that it matters what a student does at MIT, and not so much what the student did to get there. I also recognize that people can rise to challenge, when they are in an enriched environment. Nevertheless, in the situation I’ve mentioned, I question whether the admitted student is actually ready for the “drink-from-a-firehose” educational environment at MIT. Certainly, the two applicants are not ready for the same academic experiences.

When I write about smart students, I am not really talking about stats (SAT, GPA, etc.). The cut-off at the top is too low. I mean the people who remind me of the MIT faculty I know, or of members of the National Academy of Sciences, or even–in a few cases–of Nobel Laureates, in their thinking.

lookingforward · November 20, 2012, 11:30pm

Questbridge apps are long and comprehensive- many questions to help define the individual, plus three long essays. A compeltely different take on the applicant.

Your comment that “it’s possible for a person to demonstrate incredible perseverance at something that really matters to that person, yet to give up fairly quickly on something that doesn’t really matter to him/her.”

Are you saying this is somehow ok? Because one thing important to many colleges is a kid’s ability to stick with a variety of challenges, presumably seeing value beyond the direct value to his own interests and goals. It leads to a richer engagement- academically and socially- and in the overall quality of campus life itself. Outliers can have issues in projecting they will be rounded members of the campus community.

The issue isn’t failure-lite. Or challenge-lite. Rather, how a kid reacted to, learned from and evolved because of whatever experience any college asks about. What insights he has and what ability to convey the tale effectively. Most of these sorts of questions are meant to give adcoms a deeper glimpse than stats offer. How does he think and does he communicate effectively, on the level that school expects? Who is he, as a human? (Sometimes, is he human, in all that implies.)

On another thread, the college question was about a time when, despite a mastery of the facts, you didn’t get the meaning. The kid wanted to answer literally; that’s not really the point. The point is: what did that show you and how did it alter your drive for understanding?

Agreeing with all PG’s posts. The kid willing to write about burnt pie is speaking volumes. Or could be.

JHS · November 20, 2012, 11:45pm

It’s not much of a secret that Harvard, Yale, and Stanford swap faculty brats quite a bit. I was reminded of that this week when I looked at this year’s Rhodes list. There was a kid from Hamden CT by way of Harvard whose last name is the same as that of a well-known Yale law professor with a very well-known lawyer spouse. But . . . he must have done something right, because I don’t think the Rhodes committee gives legacy preferences.

Angry over the college admissions process

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