Angry over the college admissions process

muckdogs07 · November 23, 2012, 1:20pm

“Frankly I think it might be “better for the country” if so many HYP grads didn’t see the end goal in life to be going to Wall Street and making tons of money.” Pizzagirl

Perfectly stated, but perhaps this is what Harvard and other Ivies want – not the “best students” per se, but the “best graduates” (with “best” defined as most likely to acquire wealth, prestige, or power). (terms in quotes and comparison by Gladwell in article). The “best student” model might satisfy the prestige criteria, but likely not the other two. Indeed, legacies, athletes, and URM leaders probably fulfill the goals of wealth and power more than the best students do.

After all, scholarly articles and patent applications (criteria by paper cited by Beliavsky in comparing success of high-achieving SAT students (bottom to top quartile of top 1%), don’t go all that far in helping the endowment in comparison to students with solid
intelligence and high social IQ.

lookingforward · November 23, 2012, 1:21pm

Puh-lease take the racial preference comments over to the racism thread(s.)

How many have see college apps, beyond those of their own kids or a few of their friends? Or even apps from another hs?

Something to put in your pipes: while endowment is important (remember, these are insitutions, with a strong drive to maintain themselves,) the bulk of contributions is in smaller dollar amounts. Many largest donors, such as foundations, count participation as a measure of the success of an institution. The very alums willing to kick back are, it has been shown, those who were- and are still- happy with their college experiences. This is an aspect, on the front end, of finding those who will “fit and thrive.”

Beliavsky · November 23, 2012, 1:47pm

Few people, other than admissions officers, have done so, but the general public should not be shut out of discussions of college admissions. I have read “The Gatekeepers: Inside the Admissions Process of a Premier College” (about Wesleyan), “A Is for Admission: The Insider’s Guide to Getting into the Ivy League and Other Top Colleges” (by a former Dartmouth admissions officer), and “Questions and Admissions: Reflections on 100,000 Admissions Decisions at Stanford”, so I think I understand how the process works.

sally305 · November 23, 2012, 1:52pm

^Then why won’t you accept it? And what right does the general public have to admissions discussions at private universities?

The correct answer to the second question is “NONE.” Only you can answer the first.

Pizzagirl · November 23, 2012, 1:58pm

So if you’ve read those things, Beliavsky, what’s the problem? What is hard to understand about how they do it? And most importantly, what makes you think they are itching for super-geniuses but haven’t figured out how to identify them? They could admit all the 2400s if they so desired. Guess what, they don’t value scores as much as you do.

texaspg · November 23, 2012, 1:59pm

Anything written - article, book, verbage on CC - is usually one person’s version of the truth. It gives certain perspective but no matter how many books are written about it, the admissions process has too many variables built into predict a definite outcome of one candidate.

lookingforward · November 23, 2012, 2:00pm

Bel, I am not saying we can’t discuss. I find this thead fascinating. But, when we talk about assumptions, we are…talking about assumptions.

Also, be careful about what “insider” info you trust. Their point isn’t to graciously inform you of the real insider scoop; it’s to sell books.

Oddly, when I have seen posts from people who either know an adcom well or have had in-depth personal conversations with one (personal, outside their admissions role,) those often hit reality better than the books.

Pizzagirl · November 23, 2012, 2:22pm

"Perfectly stated, but perhaps this is what Harvard and other Ivies want – not the “best students” per se, but the “best graduates” (with “best” defined as most likely to acquire wealth, prestige, or power). (terms in quotes and comparison by Gladwell in article). The “best student” model might satisfy the prestige criteria, but likely not the other two. Indeed, legacies, athletes, and URM leaders probably fulfill the goals of wealth and power more than the best students do. "

Well, then, why fret if your kid doesn’t get in? If you don’t like the selection criteria or what you perceive to be the institution’s values, it’s not like you’re forced to apply.

Pizzagirl · November 23, 2012, 2:24pm

“gives certain perspective but no matter how many books are written about it, the admissions process has too many variables built into predict a definite outcome of one candidate.”

Of course. Is that a bad thing? It’s like saying the courtship process has too many variables to predict who my kid will marry. Normally, well adjusted people call that part of the process of life - that you don’t always knw the next move, and that’s ok.

mythmom · November 23, 2012, 2:28pm

I see many applications. I am a friendly, knowledgeable professor at a well-regarded community college. In fact, a relative touring Yale was told a few seats are held every year for graduates from our community college. I doubt this is true, but it was fun to see how excited my relatives were. I help many students transition from a two-year commuter school to a four-year school.

Some recent transfers have been Wellesley, NYU, SUNY Binghamton and Columbia. I have a really good idea of how to help these students craft applications to put their best foot forward. Each student got into his/her first choice, and I doubt any of them, even the Columbia student, had a perfect 2400. He did have a perfect score on TOEFL. As his English teacher, I was proud. (LOL.)

lookingforward · November 23, 2012, 2:34pm

“We assess ECs and community service work on the basis of depth, breath and uniqueness. If you are doing exactly the same thing as 1000 of your peers, you are unlikely to stand out, whatever your academic stats.”

Not quite. Even suggesting there’s a measure of depth, breadth and uniqueness slants toward some quantitative assumptions. Billy collects frog silhouettes, wow, that’s more unique than Susie, who is yet another STEM kid who worked in a research lab. (Apologies for any sarcasm.)

If you could tear apart the CA and supps for a handful of colleges, you can easily see- IMO- what each is trying to filter for. Go try NYU’s supp, as an example- the Q’s with the character limits.

If you could see some apps from top kids- strangers, which is what they are to adcoms- you’d see how ineffectively they use the EC section, Q&A and essay, no matter how tippy top their scores.

What are adcoms supposed to do? You are what you present. It’s a freaking college app. If you are smart, you won’t assume scores are all that matters or that they will drive your lesser app package to the finish line, that a creepy or trite essay will amuse them, that your inability to articulate won’t matter or that, like your hs teachers, friends and family, adcoms can read between the lines or fill in the blanks. I also read apps. I x-posted with MMom, but I highly suspect she gets this thing about the quality of the app.

xiggi · November 23, 2012, 2:47pm

Actually, let me correct this for you.

“so I think I understand how the process workED at the time those authors wrote those books”

For the record, Jacques Steinberg’s stories in The Gatekeepers are mostly from the 20th century, and only applicable to how admissions worked at Wesleyan. The tribulations of the marijuana cookie eating student might not be applicable anywhere else.

Michele Hernandez lifted the veil about the practices at Dartmouth and the use of the Academic Index, and also covered a system that is quite different today, as the level of information that is available in 2012 has little parallel to what was available more than a decade ago. In addition, all that is needed is to compare the seminal original version to the updated one that came 10 years later to understand that “how admissions work” is a moving concept.

Finally, the contributions of Jean Fetter are just as dated as they were biased. The world she described in her “100,000 applications” is probably more what Karabel researched and documented than what is happening today. Reflections about a distant past are not necessarily instructive about the present and the future, as Fetter’s book clearly indicates. The era of the Stepford children and explosion of Suzuki prodigies stopped being relevant years ago! Today’s gamesmanship is quite different.

Just think about a book written by Theodore “Ted” O’Neill about the world of admissions at Chicago in the 80s and 90s, and draw a parallel to what has happened at Chicago in the past ten years!

And, fwiw, this also a very common problem in research about admission patterns. By the time, there is enough data to start a bona fide research, most of it is barely applicable to the present, let alone the future.

texaspg · November 23, 2012, 3:23pm

“Is that a bad thing?” - only if people use these articles and books as a predictive tool.

As xiggi is suggesting, it is what happened in the past that these books are written about.

I can see at least 2 events that changed a lot of outcomes in the past 6 years.

<ol>
<li>Top schools introduced FA to cover much higher income levels - drove up the acceptance rates to single digits while applicants doubled.</li>
<li>Some of the schools dropped early action, waited a few years and brought it back last year.</li>
</ol>

Essentially the whole process changed last year at the Ivies when Harvard and Princeton brought back SCEA. So they filled more seats early which meant that Harvard was actually admitting students at 3% rate during the regular process. So what chance did anyone have?

OTOH, I know people who got into Harvard in 2004-5 time frame and turned down since it meant accumulating huge debt for the honor of attending Haavard. The same people would have been able to get a highly subsidized education a couple of years later. One would think the FA policies alone changed the admissions a whole lot because of the yield rate improvements and reductions in the numbers being admitted as a result of higher yields, more people applying knowing that it is not an unreachable goal financially etc.

mythmom · November 23, 2012, 3:30pm

In many cases, websites and looking at the people schools did admit are indicative of the people each school wants to accept.

Not only does a school want a well-rounded class, but they also want happy campers who fit in well with and enjoy the dominant campus culture.

And these types vary from campus to campus, even within the Ivies. It really is possible to help students craft their application to their “dream school” provided it is not a total lottery school (but even then chances can be enhanced) or a super reach. A super reach is a hail mary, and we needn’t worry about those.

I think this approach works for the one “chosen” school, but after that a well crafted application that is, in fact, an advertising brochure should suffice for the rest of the list.

Thinking that SAT test scores, or the GPA for that matter, is all the matters, is like thinking that MPG is all consumers think of when buying cars. It’s an important index, surely, but not the only factor under consideration. Certainly, as gas prizes continue to rise, it will become increasingly important.

I have friends who walk in and buy the Prius. No shopping. The hybrid-environmental draw is the deal sealer for them. Then I have other engineering friends who explain to me that hybrids aren’t necessarily more environmentally friendly and some of the issues associated with that.

Passenger space, hauling capacity, for some styling can come into the mix. So can how long a car retains its value.

I bought a used Saab convertible from ebay. I got a fantastic deal. Factors that interest me about Saabs are that they are safe and stylist at the same time. They are made with a higher grade of steal. They are also fun. I like the turbo engine, and I like the way they drive. I bought a convertible mostly for fun (my daily commute is 100 miles round trip), but also because I tend to be dismally low in vitamin D. I need those rays.

To choose one quantifiable element and make my decision based solely on that would not be my process in car selection. In fact, I got such a good deal on my car that even with rising gas prices it is more economically practical that a hybrid. Of course, that doesn’t excuse its extra environmental impact.

From looking at websites, it’s pretty clear how a school sees its own brand and not that difficult to market a student to fit that brand.

As I pointed out, if I had a student whose scores were their greatest strength and they really wanted to go to an Ivy I would interest him/her in Dartmouth and Cornell. For a kid strong in the arts I might suggest UPenn because they don’t get many of those applicants. A classmate of my son’s was accepted into Penn with scores that surprised everyone, but he is an artist and an actor.

By thinking carefully in advance, it is fairly easy to see what a school values.

By watching four or five admissions cycles at my kids’ high school I gained enough insight to get my kids, many of my students and quite of few of their friends into their top choices.

Of course, stats are pre-qualifiers. It is only when basic stat requirements are met that this approach succeeds. I was really disturbed when our high school guidance department assured my daughter’s best friend she would be accepted to Amherst. I knew the girl’s stats and I would have taken Amherst off the table. I stepped in and brought her an application to Bard from our visit. She attended Bard.

I should say that nothing was lost by attending Bard. She is in grad school at U Chicago.

The problem is that it takes a lot of subtly to pursue this approach. A purely quantified system would certainly be easier, but then schools would not retain their distinctive branding. We would eventually see kids sorted by only objective criteria and schools at each echelon would become fairly indistinguishable, sort of like cable stations that may have started with distinctive branding but show a menu of whatever package they’ve acquired. I’ve seen war movies on Women’s channels and provocative movies on family channels.

I think the current system is arcane, baroque, favors the savvy and favors the rich – all short comings. But I think it also has a lot going for it. And top students are certainly capable of understanding its intricacies if they do their research. If they can’t, well then maybe they are just good test takers.

Pizzagirl · November 23, 2012, 3:37pm

“I pointed out, if I had a student whose scores were their greatest strength and they really wanted to go to an Ivy I would interest him/her in Dartmouth and Cornell”

Maybe it’s because I don’t live on the east coast, but I don’t get the concept of “wanting to go to an ivy” as if they were anything other than 8 of the top schools. Singling them out as being extra special is odd to me since it doesn’t seem to correlate with real life. I’ll grant HYP, but beyond those - I can’t see a single thing about those schools that is more special or prestigious than any other top school. And since they are so different, it speaks to me of sloppy thinking.

mythmom · November 23, 2012, 3:40pm

Well, that’s fine, but some people don’t feel that way, and I don’t see why they should. My kids certainly never had this goal, DS turned one for down for a LAC, but if that’s someone’s desire, I don’t see any reason to deter them.

And I was just using that as an useful example. It wasn’t a major talking point.

lookingforward · November 23, 2012, 3:52pm

Mythmom hit it. Read it over until you get it. There can’t be pitifully generic apps, based on stats.

Yes, it rests on some savvy. The sad thing is many 17 year olds don’t get that. But, part of the goal IS to show you are savvy, you understand this college, what it offers (academically and non,) how you will partner with it, fit into its culture, be productive per various definitions, etc.

I actually think the Ivy mania is an extension of the hs BMOC thing. BMOC’s go to “the best.” How simplistic. What’s best rests on far more than rep- it’s how that program works for you. Judging by apps I have seen, many kids do not get that far in their research. Sorry. But, also, isn’t there a similar drive for mid-west kids to go to NW? Southern kids to go to Rice?

giterdone · November 23, 2012, 4:12pm

I think their reputation creates curiosity more than drive. There is an interest in knowing whether you could get in or not. And you’ll never know unless you try. I think that “drives” a lot of the apps to the Ivy’s, and NU and University of Chicago in the Midwest, Stanford in the West, etc… I know kids who have turned down acceptances to all of those, and many who tried, failed, but excelled where they ended up.

lookingforward · November 23, 2012, 4:18pm

Personally, I hate the “won’t know if you don’t try” idea. It radically overloads the system. Drives down those admit percentages that everyone thinks the colleges, themselves, are artificially seeking to manipulate. At some point, just say no.

Part of savvy should be knowing if you should apply to a top school or if it’s whimsy or self-indulgence. Or arrogance. Or some faulty reasoning that it’s only a few more bucks to add H to your CA list. Know thy schools.

LoremIpsum · November 23, 2012, 4:37pm

Well said! However, let us remember that the applicants are still teens who tend to rely on the advice of teachers, counselors and parents – and, in large pockets of the country, the advice that these mentors give are wildly outdated. If you’ve always been the best in your school and are told by those who trust that you are HYP material, why wouldn’t you trust them? A quick review of top school websites gives you little indication of the brutal competition, aside from any stats page – so if your stats are in range, it may be easy to conclude that you qualify.

CC is a treasure-trove of information, but one really has to spend many hours reading many different threads to get a true sense of the difficulties in getting accepted. If you are a student and your plate is full with homework and other activities and mentors have already given you their assurances, why would you even consider digging deeper?

I am very grateful for the advice provided here on CC. We never would have considered top-20 colleges if not for the financial aid changes that have occurred in recent years. And my son would not have been accepted had we not been made aware of the importance of taking on leadership roles in ECs and community service. I am happy my son got his opportunity; nevertheless, it bothers me somewhat that these kids are all playing the admissions game without realizing that half the rules of acceptance are hidden away from them.

Angry over the college admissions process

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