Angry over the college admissions process

Parents Forum
1281

<p>Just catching up on this thread, due to an incident with burnt cranberry sauce.
So forgive the delay, in my response to posts 1079, 1080, and 1082:
I believe that both JHS and Pizzagirl live in areas with quite strong school systems. Hypothetically, we do, too: Silver or Bronze in Newsweek ratings.
However, the literature/foreign languages/history components of the curriculum tended to be stronger than the math/science offerings. “Projects” that demanded more artistic talent than thinking showed up in a lot of the courses.
No CTY participation, but the “Talent Search” was a route to alternative course offerings, geared at middle schoolers/high schoolers, offered at the local university, modeled on a Berkeley program. So this made sense. These replaced some of the courses in the middle/high school.</p>

<p>Re #1082: 700+ in 7th grade vs. 680- in 11th grade (same demographic group)<br>
I am not thinking of SAT scoring as a “race.” My belief is that the SAT does reflect something about academic development. The student who is already operating at the 700+ level in 7th grade is unlikely to stagnate for the next five years–except in unusual cases, the student will be more academically developed, by about 4 years, give or take, than the other.</p>

<p>I don’t know whether universities can access the Talent Search award lists, or not. I do know that Northwestern runs a major award banquet for students who score at high levels. Actually, I think that Northwestern is using this as a recruiting tool for students they want to attract as undergrads. Similarly, for Duke.</p>

1282

<p>I have no idea what NU does. Mine went to CTD (the equivalent of CTY) simply because the courses sounded interesting and the idea of living on a college campus for the summer was fun. They alternated going to CTD, going to summer camp, and having paid employment as they each saw fit. I have no idea how much NU Admissions cares about the Midwest Talent Search. I do know they value their Cherubs (theater) summer program highly. Imagine that, an area of study that isn’t measurable by SAT scores. Who’s more valuable, the budding scientist or the budding theater major who touches people’s hearts? I’m sure someone will quantify it somehow @@</p>

1283

<p>Just wanted to add that in my post (pages back) about the SAT scores, I was talking about a student whose 7th grade SAT M score was more than 100 points higher than the 11th grade SAT M score of another student, of the same demographic group. MIT took the second and not the first. Based on a probabilistic analysis, since I can’t cross-correlate all of the instances precisely, I think there exists a student of the first category who was rejected by MIT but accepted by Harvard, so probably not flawed in character or limited in outlook.</p>

1284

<p>Why do I get the feelng that, after yet another page, it’s still about some perceived unfairness?</p>

1285

<p>For some, it is. There are many people on this site who do everything “right”–live in the best school districts (or pay for private schools), enable numerous EC and summer enrichment activities, hire expensive tutors and college counselors and test-prep advisors, and so on. They feel their investment of money and time and effort should have a guaranteed return. They have, consciously or unconsciously, been thinking about ROI with their kids for 18 years or more. And the “R” is, for some, their child’s admission into HYPSM. They have not thought through other options, because none are acceptable.</p>

<p>I know a number of families like this from my kids’ school. Each year a dozen or so win the “prize” of admission into these top schools. They are almost ALWAYS from families where HYPSM has been the goal since birth. Sadly, the kids don’t all find these places to their liking and each year a few seem to transfer back to our state flagship.</p>

1286

<p>Just to re-state a few of the earlier qualifications I made to my statements:</p>

<p>I have no problem believing that an MIT applicant could miss 2 questions on the SAT M and be perfectly well qualified. People misread questions and make dumb mistakes. On rare occasions, the “correct” answer is wrong; this has happened in the past with a question involving locus. So 750, or even 740 on a day with a harsh curve–no problem. However, if a student can’t make a 740 after two or three tries, I think that student is going to encounter difficulties in the general ed requirements in math and physics.</p>

<p>I am not actually one of Pizzagirl’s “STEM uber alles” types, although I think that MIT is more or less STEM uber alles, and its admissions should reflect that. I know that they have a business school and linguistics, and (probably variable by decade) strength in other areas. But they are still an “Institute of Technology.”</p>

<p>It is sometimes worthwhile for me to reflect on how I am feeling. This has never enabled me to solve any research problem–except the feeling that I should “step back from the differential equation” for a while, giving breathing space to solve it later on. I don’t think that’s what Pizzagirl has in mind.</p>

1287

<p>So MIT took the student with the lower SAT score. Since the other student attends Harvard my question remains, what’s the problem? </p>

<p>If you think MIT’s criteria silly, so be it. It’s silly. It is possible that the lower scorer had done an interesting project in an interesting way, but even if that’s not the case, all we can say is that an adcom at MIT either did or did not have good reasons for her/his decision.</p>

<p>The student with the awesome SAT score in 7th grade still has choices. Harvard will not damage his/her future, and the student has choices of Cal Tech, Georgia Tech, Stanford, Princeton, Harvard, U of Chicago, Carnegie Mellon etc, etc. etc.</p>

<p>The math department at Stony Brook left to create the most successful Hedge Fund in the world, so that must have been a pretty good program too.</p>

<p>What is the big deal if MIT made a flawed choice, or if they made an informed choice with factors we don’t see?</p>

<p>In either instance the student is not barred from higher education that suits his/her needs, nor can we say that MIT doesn’t educate students that go on to achieve.</p>

<p>I taught myself to read at 18 months. Should Harvard have come clambering to my door?</p>

<p>Haha. It was all male when I was applying to schools. </p>

<p>And as for the verbal SAT, many of the questions are devised by earlier high scorers, many of whom haven’t finished college, and some of the desired answers are really not correct. So, a 780 scorer may actually have a more accurate grasp of logic, language and vocabulary than the 800 scorer. The 800 scorer is adept at perceiving conventional thinking patterns and matching the expectations of the tester.</p>

<p>I know that this isn’t a problem in math.</p>

1288

<p>" MIT took the second and not the first. Based on a probabilistic analysis, since I can’t cross-correlate all of the instances precisely, I think there exists a student of the first category who was rejected by MIT but accepted by Harvard, so probably not flawed in character or limited in outlook."</p>

<p>Uh, being rejected at Harvard would not have been evidence of “flawed in character or limited in outlook.” Why are you all ascribing such deep meaning to what ad coms say. All they are saying with a rejection is that your total package wasn’t compelling to them at that moment in time. Maybe it would have been if they hasn’t just reviewed three tuba players from Michigan. They aren’t saying “we don’t value your smarts” or " we think you are a cruddy person." </p>

<p>Btw, I don’t need to be a physics god to know that cranberry sauce burning problems never occur when you slide it out of the can :-)</p>

1289

<p>MIT also has an English major and a very impressive art department, particularly at the graduate level. It’s part of their architecture program, but art and technology is a growing field and MIT is at the forefront there. Look at the website. It has knocked my socks off many times.</p>

<p>I do agree that stem qualified students can make better use of many of the resources of MIT that those less qualified in math. Just the way it is.</p>

<p>On the other hand, the next, great evolutionary biologist may not score 740 on the math SAT and may meet someone at MIT whose skill in model building may be the route to the discovery.</p>

<p>One of the problems with all tech all the time is that culture falls into Snow’s condition of two distinct cultures, a humanities culture and a stem culture. This diminishes both if/when this happens, and MIT may want students who don’t have to watch movies as their only English course as my nephew did at Georgia Tech.</p>

<p>I remember reading Feynman explaining that English courses are flat out stupid and the professors were crazy not to give him A’s. With that attitude I can’t imagine what was lacking in his ability to interpret literature. While I don’t think his lack of sensitivity to literature and what it had to say negatively affected his discovery of QED, it may have impacted on his very troubled relationship with his daughter.</p>

<p>I’m not sure we want to reduce people to their product, even in STEM.</p>

<p>MIT is a vibrant culture that could stimulate a humanities type or give the next, great science popularizer the tools to bridge the “two cultures” and speak to the public about the doings of science.</p>

<p>We may all rate these outcomes differently.</p>

<p>However, for me, the bottom line is that the brilliant seventh grader will get his/her shot. If MIT were the only game in town this would be a different discussion. But it isn’t.</p>

1290

<p>*I have no problem believing that an MIT applicant could miss 2 questions on the SAT M and be perfectly well qualified. * But some of us have no problem believing a kid can miss more than two and still be a great catch.</p>

<p>Maybe the lower scorer had clearly formulated goals, the vision and energy to pursue them, oodles of relevant experience, still made time to be a real kid, could present well, had super LoRs that examined his assets. And the higher scorer came across as smart, wrapped in his own world and not much more.</p>

1291

<p>QuantMech, why “should” MIT’s criteria reflect your personal preferences? I think they are in a better position than you to judge how happy they are with who they get, and to change the criteria accordingly. If any elite school tomorrow wanted to go to straight SATs, abolish legacy or admit all legacies, require applicants to play varsity sports, etc why shouldn’t they? If you don’t like their criteria, go elsewhere. Who is so unsophisticated as to think that any one of these schools has any monopoly on anything?</p>

1292

<p>Imagine the freakout if HYPSM went “SAT-optional.”</p>

1293

<p>

QM-
Do you mean you actually did a probalisitc analysis, mathematically, based on actual data and came to this concluson? Meaning you actually have a number and a confidence level that this is true? THat would be pretty remarkable. I wasn’t aware that all the data to make such a conclusion was even available to the public.</p>

<p>Or do you mean that based on what you generally know you think this is probably true?</p>

1294

<p>" However, if a student can’t make a 740 after two or three tries, I think that student is going to encounter difficulties in the general ed requirements in math and physics."</p>

<p>You THINK. If MIT actually observes this and found it to be a problem, then they wouldn’t ADMIT kids as “low” as a 740, would they? Or do you just keep blindly thinking that they admit all these kids who can’t do the work and keep scratching their heads as to why this is?</p>

1295

<p>Is opinion lining up along male-female lines? Women who fought the old boy network not nearly as intimidated by holistic? Not for pure gender reasons- and not suggesting holistic is a feminine perspective- but because we know that devil exists and have been fighting for a generation or two? We can say, “get with it.” And now men are seeing raw power or powerful scores offer no certainty? Blame this question on some thesis research D1 is doing, that has me wondering.</p>

1296

<p>For no apparent reason,
<a href=“http://web.mit.edu/firstyear/2016/subjects/PracticeTest2008.pdf[/url]”>http://web.mit.edu/firstyear/2016/subjects/PracticeTest2008.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I think I posted this before. It is the math exam (sample) for Physics placement at MIT. I have to admit I was a little surprised that there were MIT Freshmen who didn’t score 100% on this test (assuming there are such Freshmen).</p>

1297

<p>

I wasn’t sure what your gender was LF. I’m male and I think I am more in your camp. QuantMEch is a female and I think she disagrees with you.</p>

<p>And sadly I originally thought QM was a man mainly because she’s a Physics prof. I can admit to a little latent sexism I guess - based on my experience 35 years ago with my physics profs.</p>

1298

<p>I never fought an old boy network.</p>

1299

<p>What if all colleges just went to a “first come, first served” approach? would people be any happier? Just like “black Friday” sales. Whoever is inline (actually shows up) at the Admin office, with check in hand, 8:00 AM some Monday in May, HS diploma in hand, gets in. No parents, no “stand in’s” The actual student must be present.</p>

<p>Take out the common app and the internet? talk about disruption.</p>

1300

<p>I actually never fought it either, but have long been aware of it and others’ struggles; in my experiences in tech, contribution mattered most. Uh, contribution included interactive skills, as well- team players, communications skills, the ability to deal with emotional clients, etc. Lots makes the world go round.</p>

<p>Git, something we see alike on- a bit. I wish we could open the gates and close them 2 weeks later. Or, some tiering- you can apply to 3 “most competitives.” What IS the purposeof 25-35k apps?</p>