Angry over the college admissions process

Pizzagirl · November 28, 2012, 2:15pm

This doesn’t make any sense to me at all, to be honest. It’s not as though there is only MIT on one hand and your local community college on the other hand. Don’t you think the vast majority of kids who are rejected from math and science at MIT go on to be … math and science majors at other good schools? Honestly, it’s hard for me to think anything but no harm no foul.

Or if they wind up moving from math and science into something else, isn’t that just part of the nature of life? It isn’t a bad thing to discover a new interest and follow it. That’s part of what college is for.

Gourmetmom · November 28, 2012, 2:19pm

Similar to sbjdorlo’s son, my son is high achieving in math, but not USAMO. He also did not start math competitions until high school, and he actually did remarkably well considering how late he started. He was first in his hs class, interested in lots of things - math, chemistry, physics, classics, and highly accomplished at all of them. I think he would have loved MIT and fit in well there, and enjoyed the peer group and the academics. It is difficult for anyone who knows him to understand why he was rejected - lots of people shook their heads (and these are folks who understand the process). It may have been as simple as the fact that MIT hasn’t taken anyone from his school in years and they don’t plan to for some time. They accept very few students from my area, especially from private schools for some baffling reason. I do think he has the potential to do something great - he has terrific character and leadership potential in addition to a topnotch intellect. Harvard saw something in him that MIT did not - MIT’s loss, Harvard’s gain. His admissions officer at Harvard did tell him that they are lucky to have him:) This has been an interesting discussion and special thanks to QM for her thoughtful insights.

LoremIpsum · November 28, 2012, 2:22pm

Those people up the ladder from your own situation: If you’re working for minimum wage, it’s the folks making over $50k/year. For those making $50k/year, it’s those overpaid folks making $200k/year. Those $200k/year folks, however, consider themselves middle class and point to those with a few million in assets. The folks with a few million in assets point to those with $10-$20 million who, in turn, point to those with $100 million+.

This is why Fortune came up with its Top 400 list – people everyone could point to as being privileged. ;)

Pizzagirl · November 28, 2012, 2:25pm

No, I don’t think it’s objectively reasonable AT ALL to think that way; moreover, the kind of person who thinks that way seems to me to be remarkably lacking in the components of intelligence known as self-awareness and emotional intelligence.

All that MIT is saying is that they did not select you to be in the class of 20xx at MIT because you didn’t fit their set of institutional needs in that moment in time and in the context of all of the other kids applying at the time. That’s all. They are not saying you’re not smart enough. They are not saying you’re not good enough. They are not saying that you clearly kick puppies. They are not saying you should just give up and start flipping burgers.

Good grief. I went to a college with a prominent theater, and even though theater majors aren’t as “smart” as all those math / science people, they surely didn’t interpret auditioning and being turned down for a particular part as being evidence that they shouldn’t ever, ever, ever try to act again.

I’m sorry, QM. I cannot agree that this is how a reasonable person of normal emotional intelligence should view an MIT rejection. A disappointment? Sure, cry away. But a judgment on overall merits? MIT isn’t saying “We accepted 5% - the other 95% should just hang it up.” They are saying “We accepted 5% out of many, many great candidates, and we could fill our class several times over with excellent students.” Why don’t you believe them?

texaspg · November 28, 2012, 2:26pm

“Harvard saw something in him that MIT did not - MIT’s loss, Harvard’s gain.”

Sorry he had to settle! :p

Pizzagirl · November 28, 2012, 2:33pm

Oh please, beliavsky! My children had well-off and educated parents, and they most certainly were “privileged” in college admissions. They attended a good public school, were supported in their extracurricular activities, had opportunities to attend interesting summer programs in their fields of interest, had parents who conceived of a college landscape beyond just our state’s schools, had a mother who knew more than the school GC knew, had the financial means and time to visit almost all the schools on their list, and most importantly – had parents who knew what was what so they didn’t play the lemming-game as was described upthread (“everybody now go join sports since that’s what adcoms like!”). Add to that legacy at a top school and the economic privilege of being able to go early-decision and not have to worry about financial aid concerns – how is that not EXTRAORDINARILY privileged?

Bay · November 28, 2012, 2:38pm

I know H has regional admissions reps, I assume MIT does as well. I’m sure there is variation and bias in these reps’ minds about certain high schools, for whatever reason. My D had a conversation with her rep during which he actually joked about another high school not being a serious place of learning. She found that conversation surprising but telling.

LoremIpsum · November 28, 2012, 2:42pm

I would not be slightest bit surprised if the sequence in which your application appears becomes a non-trivial factor; this may also be the case for QM’s USMAO winners. The first applicant reviewed with a given set of traits may impress; the third not so much; and the 5th not at all. Maybe all 5 “deserved admission” in any quantitative sense, but the adcoms are interested in building a diversified class, which may well conflict with always cherry-picking the “best,” however that is defined. Too many gazelles this week, they really want a giraffe!

mathmom · November 28, 2012, 2:47pm

I’ve also come to believe if you are from an area with science magnets or private feeder schools you are at a disadvantage at some colleges. For some reason Harvard has decided our high school is trustworthy, but I don’t think we’ve made a similar case at MIT or Stanford just to name two.

I really am over the MIT rejection - it was always a question as to whether my son’s real world accomplishments were the equivalent of doing an Intel science project. He got deferred before he was rejected, so I assume he was at least in the running. And while he took the AIME three or four years running he never qualified for USAMO. (He considers math more a tool than an interest and never studied at all for these contests.) As far as I was concerned there were plenty of reasons to reject him. The choice of teachers for his recommendations might have been an issue (Latin for the required non-science teacher) or his essay, which had a funny beginning that the readers might not have thought amusing both are possibilities. His application basically said I’m a computer scientist, take me or leave me. It is who he is.

I’d bet more students drop science on getting their first B or C in a math or science course in college than were rejected by MIT.

I don’t know that I think MIT should automatically accept the USMAO winners (absent red flags) or any other contest winner as a proxy for being the brightest minds of their generation.

muckdogs07 · November 28, 2012, 3:00pm

In there any research on how many USAMO winners have gone on to become brilliant scientists/received nobels/even goldwaters etc.

Beliavsky · November 28, 2012, 3:04pm

If some children are better off than others because of what their parents do for them, I do not consider that “privilege”. Following Henderson, whose essay I cited earlier, I reserve that term for differential treatment by the government – for example racial preferences in admissions at a state school. One may consider those privileges justified for the sake of diversity or to right historical wrongs, but they are still privileges.

sbjdorlo · November 28, 2012, 3:05pm

QM,

Most of my son’s friends are actually not starting at the upper divison level or if they are, they still have to fulfill the GIRs. My son was able to transfer in all the lower division math. However, he says his friends are faster problem solvers than he is (and he’s pretty fast) and have more experience with the type of work involved in psets, so at least one friend who’s in lower division math is helping him. They will all be taking upper division classes next semester, though.

Gourmetmom, absolutely Harvard’s gain is MIT’s loss. I don’t pretend to understand much about admissions period. I do know that MIT took all four homeschoolers who applied from our area (including my son). As well, they took at least seven kids from the local math circle (including my son). They seem to like our area for some reason.

My son doesn’t come from a “privileged” background (dh is working class and we’re middle income under 80K), but we’re not poor by any stretch of the imagination.

It seems admissions is such a complex issue.

Also, I know students from the math circle who chose other schools over MIT such as Princeton, Harvard, and Stanford. As well, I know students who chose other schools over MIT because they couldn’t afford MIT and got much better aid elsewhere. I haven’t known any USAMO who were rejected by MIT, but I am not really “in the know.”

alh · November 28, 2012, 3:06pm

mathmom: My son was deferred, then waitlisted, than called to find out why he hadn’t sent in the waitlist card.

Is it the norm to get a call if you don’t send back in that waitlist card? My kids didn’t send any back and did get some calls. Maybe that’s just routine?

I want to repeat my son is fine. Finished PhD in science field. Only mama is still obsessing.

muckdogs07 · November 28, 2012, 3:08pm

Canuckguy and Beliavsky,

Thanks for posting the Unz article. Unz was one of the movers behind the successful effort in CA to limit bilingual education (prop 227).

Summary: Unz claims asians are substantially disadvantaged at Ivies and other top schools as are non-Jewish whites (gentiles he terms them, which group accoridng to his statistics make up a quarter of the student body at Harvard and the other Ivies save for Princeton and Dartmouth where there are a much higher percentage of gentiles). Unz also claims that factoring in intelligence (which he tries to proxy via results of NMS/Math Contests), Jewish students are disproportunately represented at Harvard by a factor of 5:1 to 7:1 (and similar magnitudes at other Ivies, save for P and D).

Caveats: Unz acknowledges that Jewish students are concentrated in the NE and that he lacks admissions statistics and so does not know how many Jews apply to these schools compared to gentiles/asians.

Beyond the counterintuitive idea that “gentiles” are now the most d/a group in America re admissions to top schools (have trouble believing this), what intereste dme is that the percentage of Jewish stuidnts at Harvard has remained relatively constant since around 1993 at 25%. As I have posted elsewhere, for the last decade Harvard also has tight bands for AA’s (11 to 12%), Hispanics (9 to 11%) and Asians (16 to 21%). If Unz’s numbers are right, this further suggests the use of soft quotas at Harvard.

lookingforward · November 28, 2012, 3:18pm

alh- going back a few pages, rather than worry that a few kids not taken into school X will negatively impact society, I worry far more about kids whose degrees represent sitting in the right combo of classes for x amount of time- and they get a degree without being smarter, educated, decent thinkers- or likely to make much impact in the world that they couldn’t have otherwise. And, either in debt for it or using up public resources, etc.

Gatekeepers is old. At that point, schools were still using paper apps.

Take a breath. There is very little scientific thinking or analysis going on here. People are positing that there is an issue to be outraged at- and a benefit to be gained from swapping things around.

They dart in comments about negative impacts on society, disappointed kids, potential genius innovations lost, more richy preppy kids getting further, suggestions adcoms lie or fudge, attacks that adcoms are sub-par with lousy resumes and devoid of savvy-

-and it all just riles up the pack and spreads like wildfire. The rational is stripped out. Conjecture built upon conjecture.

You DON’t know how admissions decsions are made. You DON’t see apps. I am not even sure you see outcomes- just some googled refs (some of which are positions on an issue or theories, not fact. Some of which are editorials.)

And, repeatedly, one or two point to CC as some sort of empirical proof. CC which does not show those kids’ essays short answers, LoRs, anything about their hs grade inflation or offerings. CC, which is a self-selcting limited group of kids with the time and willingness to post a smidgen of their details.

Where is the fact finding and analysis here??? A data set and then hypotheticals? Is it enough?

And anecdotes are so limited to what we happened to hear, someone we happened to know about- and an assumption based on that?

I could go along with much of this, IF we were suggesting new colleges should be created that are all STEM, all the time. Instead, we speak of a private college. One few posters know in the present era. And, when all else fails, peole throw in, “Yeah? Well, I think” followed by more guesses and insinuations.

alh · November 28, 2012, 3:26pm

Absolutely. I agree. Now back to my question to you: do the universities have the power to positively or negatively impact society? If they do have that power, are we justified to question how they use it?

Is the university doing its job? Let’s use your examples. We may need a new thread.

lookingforward · November 28, 2012, 3:34pm

I believe every pillar around us has the potential to positively or negatively impact. Local politics, finances, corporate goals, just to start. I would worry more about U’s tinkering with genetics, tools of war; other systems that turn a blind eye to abuse;, ranking and rating people based on ostensible wealth- it’s endless.
Do I think a U’s admissions polices can negatively impact society? You mean, a kid’s voluntary decision whether or not to apply, to risk that he may not get in? No. (The full answer will take more time than I have now.) Maybe I can explain later. I’ve got to go work with some uh bright STEM kids. Really.

mokusatsu · November 28, 2012, 3:38pm

You and Henderson are using one narrow meaning of the term privilege.

Bay · November 28, 2012, 3:41pm

I’m still trying to figure out why it matters whether those of us participating on this thread are privileged or not.

alh · November 28, 2012, 3:58pm

LG: I think the university should have a variety of missions beyond fund raising. I think nurturing potential scholars, who will be the academics of the next generation, should be one of their missions. I think this thread explores the idea that MIT might not be wholly successful in that mission. If everything about MIT admissions being posted is a complete fantasy, I still think the discussion is worthwhile… especially the idea that potential scholars may have some value and perhaps should be encouraged.

I also think the university should have as its mission the education of its citizens. It seems to me you describe a situation where that mission is not being fulfilled. I think it is okay for us to question why that is and I think we better question it.

In both cases, I think it is more than okay to get a bit bent out of shape as we consider what exactly is happening at our universities. I think the university has lots of other missions, some of which I agree with and some of which I don’t. I also think universities are in the midst of significant changes with regard to what society expects their mission to be. I think it is good to talk about it.

Bay: I only brought it up because in the scheme of things whether my kid gets into MIT is such an amazingly first world problem and I wanted to be sure the board understood that I understood this to be the case. I especially wanted poetgrl to know I understood that. We are debating issues inconceivable to the majority of this country and the world’s population worrying about real issues like not starving, disease, war, etc. I certainly didn’t anticipate the response!!

Angry over the college admissions process

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