Angry over the college admissions process

Parents Forum
1961

<p>Then you lack compassion, lookingforward, are so privileged that your kids already have it made regardless, or live in Texas or some region of the country where elite college admissions doesn’t matter much. But in our neck of the woods kids dedicate their lives to being the best students they can be–yes, for the joy of it, but also because they hope for the opportunity to attend a school which will give them a superior education, a prestigious diploma, improved odds of being hired, and better career advancement prospects.</p>

<p>We all know there are no guarantees, but I believe one can certainly improve his odds of success in a bad economy by attending an elite school, all else being equal. My son started his career earning what DH had to work 30 years to earn. That is the power of an Ivy degree. Meanwhile, many of his state school counterparts are still unemployed, underemployed working at Best Buy and Starbucks, or in grad school–not because they wanted to attend but because it was preferable to having no job. But I don’t want to start another one of those threads… Suffice it to say that often the folks who love to pooh-pooh what they believe is a misguided emphasis on attending the most prestigious schools, are doing so from a place of good fortune far above the circumstances of our family. Others do so because their kids haven’t yet reached the stage where they are competing for scarce jobs and are being told by HR that 80,000 applications were received for only a handful of internship positions.</p>

1962

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<p>Maybe the result of an Ivy degree, or maybe the result of a talented person. Ivy grads aren’t the only ones making the big bucks. Even I know recent college grads making 6 figures ( ok–very low 6 figures) who didn’t go to HYPSM and didn’t major in STEM or get a job on Wallstreet. </p>

<p>It’s not that unlikely.</p>

1963

<p>TheGFG, “The power of an Ivy degree.” All of the state school kids are flipping burgers? Just not true. S1 , a “state school” grad,making 6 figures. S2 already has a good job lined up when he graduates in May in engineering, from a “state school.” You accuse lookingforward of lacking compassion but you have no hesitancy in dissing state schools and implying their graduates are doomed to working at Best Buy and Starbucks(not that there’s anything wrong with that). Unbelievable.</p>

1964

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<p>Not a member of the math faculty, but Scott Aaronson, a member of the EECS faculty, was not only rejected when he applied to MIT as an undergrad, but also for graduate school ([Shtetl-Optimized</a> Blog Archive aaronson@mit](<a href=“Shtetl-Optimized » Blog Archive » aaronson@mit”>Shtetl-Optimized » Blog Archive » aaronson@mit)).</p>

1965

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<p>I am curious, why do you think so many people from the Bay Area and the DC suburbs qualify for USAMO? Do the people who live there just happen to be so much smarter and hard working than everyone else in the country?</p>

1966

<p>GFG- compassion? I lack compassion because I recognize the reality? Should everything be laid out, facilitated, explained, apologized for? I don’t think so.</p>

<p>We’re talking, in the case of the top schools, 25-35,000 apps for mostly 2000 admits. A few more for the bigger Ivies or other large top schools, a few less for Caltech and MIT, CMU, etc. There is some mightly simple math required, to know what one’s general shot is.</p>

<p>When we believe our kids are great, very great, it’s right to encourage them. Setting, promoting or allowing unrealistic expectations can be very misleading. Even unfair. </p>

<p>When we say “competition is fierce,” it not just the numbers game- it’s thousands of competing kids with qualities, involvements, depth/breadth, good self-presentation in the app, good LoRs, etc- great, very great, highly accomplished kids. And the U’s needs and wants.</p>

<p>Yes, at a certain point, you have to leave the wishes, wants and dreams part aside and be analytical, do the research, step back. If your kid applies for a competitive internship, based on his math skills, do you expect “the rejected student to know what went wrong?”</p>

<p>My kids- like those of PG and others- landed at great schools because we did not assume it was all like UT.</p>

1967

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<p>I don’t see the economy getting better anytime soon; it will probably get worse, considering that continued growth in a world of ever-scarcer and more-expensive resources becomes difficult. In a few years, having a marketable degree with high grades from an elite college could make all the difference of just getting in the door to be considered for an attractive job.</p>

1968

<p>Last year, you could replace “elite degree” with “internship.” That’s where all the fuss was. And, of course, there were naysayers who argued that experience didn’t matter, kids should be hired cold out of college with great salaries, internships went to privileged kids, certain kids should be at the head of the line for internships, ad infinitum. Plus the usual “My friend’s boss’s neighbor’s kid got a great job and she never interned.” And, “My kid is brilliant and worked his tail off in college and didn’t have time for an internship and now he’s stuck, at home. Why isn’t his hard work for grades enough?” And, of course, that poor kids can’t take internships.</p>

<p>I guess we’ll argue anything.</p>

1969

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<p>the sad part of this kind of thinking, imho, is just that this is really not even the mission of most of the elite U’s. This is the mission of the state flagships, employment. The mission of the elite U’s is, actually, scholarship. QM’s arguments were compelling to most of us for this reason, I suppose, though most of us would agree there are more elite tech schools than just MIT.</p>

<p>When we start to talk degree=employment we need some practical thinkers like UCB, actually. </p>

<p>Let me just state that there are at least the same number of college graduates these days as there were high school graduates after WWII. This is maybe why the flagships are the best bet for many in the college arms race. Grad school is the new college, and I’m not even trying to be glib.</p>

1970

<p>How did I "diss’ state schools? I said my son’s friends–and I should have specified I’m referring to the ones with a similar major to his, because that’s certainly relevant to the comparison) who attended are underemployed. You can say that’s merely anecdotal nonsense, too small of a sample, whatever you want to say. Debate away. It might be because our state schools don’t belong to the Cal system and also aren’t UT Austin, UVA, or UMich. Regardless, if there weren’t some basis to what I’m saying, the masses wouldn’t be clamoring to be admitted to the top schools and the vast majority of threads on CC about the vagaries of admission to said schools wouldn’t exist–including this thread which now has 212,444 views.</p>

<p>My point was simply that people who disdain those who highly value the opportunity to attend a school like MIT should remember that for some of us, it’s not only about the level of scholarship, or the prestige. It’s about financial survival. We paid 4 years of tuition for our eldest, are paying now for our middle child, and still have (if my efforts with my disabled youngest pay off) 4 more years to pay for. All that, and we’re not even talking about our need to add to our meager retirement savings because we’re in our 50’s, or the fact our old home needs remodeling because we literally only have one pot to pee in (bathroom plumbing needs to be replaced, lol). If my S were currently unemployed or working retail, it would be a huge hardship on us because we’d have to subsidize his loan payments and living expenses. He’s a bright hardworking kid, so it IS possible he’d have made it anyway. My guess is he’d have gotten a job, but it would pay about $40,000 less than the one he has. You can scoff at that, but I grew up pretty poor and my husband grew up in a tiny third world country where everyone wants to study at our top universities because of the huge economic benefit it would offer them. Education is, as it always has been, the key to upward mobility. Since it’s true that the ordinary undergrad degree has been devalued because so many poeple now have one, that only makes the quality of the school from which the degree is issued more important.</p>

1971

<p>None of that means MIT is the only game in town, though.</p>

1972

<p>Maybe saying you “dissed” state schools was a little strong,TheGFG .Sorry. Your S seems to hang with some pretty unfortunate state school kids if most are either underemployed or unemployed. Know many state school kids and most are very gainfully employed. And you don’t have to come out of a place like UVa or UMich to get a good job. S1 did go to UVa and has a great job. S2 is at Virginia Tech. Interned at a sciene and technology consulting firm this summer (along with kids from Cornell,Yale, and UVa, and Illinois,etc.). Other summers they have had a few MIT and Georgia Tech kids in their internship class. Anecdotal, yes, but he got a full time offer to work for them when he graduates next year. His school did not exclude him from working alongside kids from more “elite” schools.</p>

<p>If a kid wants to go into something like investment banking, an elite school is more likely to get them there. I don’t see that the masses though are clamoring to go to these top schools. Sure, many people are and CC certainly has many kids and families that aspire to these schools.</p>

<p>And yes, I certainly know about paying for college, TheGFG. We have been full pay for 8 straight years (at state schools of course but even they are not cheap these days and we are not wealthy). So, I empathize with you on that. One more tuition check to go!</p>

1973

<p>It strikes me as ironic that one of the MIT essay prompts QM objected to early on was the “tell me how you dealt with a failure” one, and her position is also that some very bright students should be auto admits precisely because they shouldn’t have to experience the “failure” of an MIT rejection because they’ll do something unfortunate (=leave science).</p>

1974

<p>“Then you lack compassion, lookingforward, are so privileged that your kids already have it made regardless, or live in Texas or some region of the country where elite college admissions doesn’t matter much.”</p>

<p>Uh - that would be the majority of the country and the majority of jobs in this country where an elite school is irrelevant. I can name dozens of Northern Illinois graduates who walk in perfectly fine jobs with upward potential - they aren’t I banking, but so what? </p>

<p>I like elite colleges plenty! But this overvaluing of a handful as the only possible launching pad - and this idolization of MIT as so important that if you don’t get in, change your interests - isn’t in touch with reality.</p>

1975

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<p>I agree with much of what you write but would phrase things slightly differently. Here is an example from my experience. While still in elementary school and less than 10 years old, my son has qualified for the Study of Exceptional Talent in math (SAT >= 700) and has earned a place on the AMC 8 honor roll for students in grades 6 and below. The majority of kids his age with his talent are not taking the SAT or AMC 8. Many if not most 8th graders talented in math are unaware of the AMC 8 and are not thinking ahead to the AMC 10 and 12. These opportunities did not “fall from the sky”, but they were not created by son, either. My wife and I made him aware of them, and he took advantage of them.</p>

1976

<p>TheGFG, Just did want to add that I don’t see that anyone here has shown a “disdain” for those who “highly value the opportunity to attend a school like MIT.” Some of my family members by marriage are elite school grads (Yale ,Columbia, CMU) and a nephew is at an Ivy as we speak. Just feel that elite schools are not the only game in town.</p>

1977

<p>As often happens here on CC, some of the recent comments seem to have regional bias blinders on. My kiddos are too young to be in the job market but the triplets of our neighbors graduated from 2 of our TN state universities within the last 3 years. All three are fully employed, in their intended fields. 1 is working for an international conglomerate and lived in Hoboken for a year during his NJ placement; the most successful one paid more in taxes last year than her mom’s yearly salary and (gasp!) she’s the one who went to the state directional uni, not even the flagship. TN’s economy did not get hit as badly as the NE states did, but I am not seeing rampant underemployment of recent grads here.</p>

1978

<p>“Doesn’t it ever strike you as odd, lookingforward, that it is so often impossible for the rejected student to know what went wrong? After all, true red flags are colorful and attention-getting–they are noticeable. The fact that there’s this black box from which results pop out that confuse even admissions savvy people, is exactly why students get exasperated and discouraged over college admissions results. If they can say something like, “Yeah, well my SAT scores were a little low for MIT,” that’s a comfort”</p>

<p>But that’s only true if MIT admitted by scores, which isn’t true.</p>

<p>What do you want them to say? It’s not “you got a B in sophomore English” or “your chemistry SAT Ii was only 770, not 800.” Often, the person was perfectly qualified but someone else was more interesting in the total context of the pool. When there is no one formula looked for, how can you possibly say “why”? “You didn’t play the tuba”? People FEEL things. They use intuition.</p>

1979

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<p>Here is a recent NYT article featuring Ivy League graduates on food stamps. Someone with a practical major from a good school may do better than an Ivy League grad with a less practical major.</p>

<p>[Recent</a> College Graduates Wait for Their Real Careers to Begin - NYTimes.com](<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/01/fashion/recent-college-graduates-wait-for-their-real-careers-to-begin.html]Recent”>http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/01/fashion/recent-college-graduates-wait-for-their-real-careers-to-begin.html)</p>

<p>“We did everything we were supposed to,” said Stephanie Morales, 23, who graduated from Dartmouth College in 2009 with hopes of working in the arts. Instead she ended up waiting tables at a Chart House restaurant in Weehawken, N.J., earning $2.17 an hour plus tips, to pay off her student loans.</p>

1980

<p>The problem is not that students don’t need to learn how to deal with failure in a healthy manner. We all do. The problem is that that particular essay question puts the student in the awkward position of trying to discern which of his faults or mistakes are safe to share with the very people he’s trying to impress, and which might disqualify him by being too grave or too trivial.</p>

<p>Not to beat a dead horse, but can I say again I think some of this debate has socio-economic roots? If your parents are affluent, have strong business connections and/or own their own business, you as their child have a good deal more flexibility. You and your family can better tolerate the sort of educational failure that costs money. </p>

<p>Suppose my S had decided to go ahead and major in engineering anyway, despite the early signs he wasn’t as strong in math as in other academic areas–including the sign of getting rejected by MIT (my son didn’t really apply, but let’s pretend he did.) Let’s say he listened to those who say he should follow his dreams, do what makes him happy, blah blah. What if, after a year or two in the major, he was weeded out because he couldn’t hack the math component of the classes? Now he has to change majors, possibly meaning an additional semester or year. That is a $25,000 financial loss if he had attended our state school, or a $55,000 dollar loss at his alma mater. For the affluent kid, no biggie. For us, a huge deal.</p>