Anne Marie Slaughter, "Unfinished Business", work/family balance, and related topics

Parent Cafe
21

While being a two-income family with children and elderly is difficult, I don’t know if encouraging women to be the ones to lean back and consider family before career is the right thing, for either a specific family or society in general.

And just drove through Princeton, I am sure there are lots of men who would give up a stressful job in DC if they were offered a professorship at Princeton, nice environment, great school, lots of prestige. She is not slumming by any means.

Family-life balance involves both partners and should include some flexibility from both employers.

And as written elsewhere, child care is critical, but with women’s wages depressed, they cannot afford childcare that includes a living wage for the caregivers.

" It isn’t all about urging women to succeed by duplicating traditionally male business/career models. When she did that, even with a partner who was the anchor parent (her description) she still finds her work impossible to reconcile with family life, when family life becomes difficult due to a troubled teen. She needed a flexible schedule. She explores how everyone could have a more flexible schedule. This, too, gets away from traditional business models."

but what if a women can be very successful in a traditionally male business/career model job … and what if enough women did pursue this that solutions to the greater societal issues around caregiving could be solved. For example, a successful woman can afford to pay a living wage to a caregiver for her children and/or aging parents, but a woman who makes considerable choices against career oriented jobs probably cannot (and may need to work anyway, just at a lower status, lower paying job).

Women differ greatly in the degree of involvement with career and family that they want, how many hours they are willing to work on family and career a week (as opposed to any free time), and also on how successful they can be in a career.

If you are married to a very high achiever, and you don’t really want to work, don’t work.
If you are a very high achiever, maybe that is not the right decision.
If you are married to a low achiever, that may not work well either.
And if your achiever leaves you and your kids … you may be stuck working a crappy job …

22

All your points are excellent.

Slaughter isn’t encouraging women to be the ones to lean back. She and her husband are both Princeton Profs. She had a leave of absence to work at the State Dept and anticipated staying in a government position. He has been the anchor parent/caregiver to allow her to be the competitor. At a certain point in time, their son needed both of them to focus on him. Even though her husband was the anchor parent and they could afford help, she believed she needed to be home in Princeton rather than DC when her teenager had problems.

I am all for paying a living wage for someone to do the childcare. One thing she discusses in the book are the times there really has to be a parent available. She doesn’t care about the gender of that parent. Frazzled2thecore makes good points about this as well. Sometimes you just can’t hire it out. It really has to be a parent. In Slaughter’s case, she believed it had to be both parents. This is one of those unanticipated issues for many of us. It isn’t necessarily part of the model we are taught.

23

What are all of you telling your adult children about work/family issues?

Do you think it makes sense for a couple to plan for a baby when they both work more than full-time in high pressure environments and intend to keep doing so? Would you encourage them to start a family in those circumstances?

Assuming they care what we think :slight_smile:
Let’s assume mine care at least somewhat.
I honestly don’t know what to advise. This is really complicated. imho.

24

We both worked more-than-full time - H has a job that is essentially 24/7 on call, and I was very intense on advancing in my career. We hired full-time help - had the same person from when the kids were a year old til they went off to college, so no rotating day-care set-ups. I really haven’t advised my kids one way or the other. They’ll do what they want to do. My daughter thinks she’d want to work. I know my son would be a very involved, hands-on parent no matter what his wife decides. It’s up to them.

But I do think women need to be very cognizant that the decision to stay at home is not just income lost in that year (or those particular years), but the loss of $ that would go into 401K plans, IRAs, long-term savings. That is, by staying home with children, you may increase the chance that you’ll be economically dependent on them some day. Ground lost then is very difficult to make up later.

25

We had our 3 sons later. When the second one came I went part time and when the 3rd was born I became a SAHM…
Since we have only sons it maybe a little different. They have seen how hard and how many hours my DH has to work in order to pay the bills. I don’t think any of them want to work that hard. DH has had to miss a lot of their activities and just general time with them. I think that they will probably want their future wife to work at least part time once they have kids. Although they are all used to me being available for them at all times so they may want that for their future kids.

26

I have had this discussion with my kids. They would not like to live the life I have lived or watch a spouse live this life.
I would be heartbroken to see this happen to a DIL or D. They are not even sure they would want to be the sole breadwinner in a stressful if rewarding job, and then come home to this type of family situation, year in and year out.

They understand that remaining home during the years I was raising my children was not a “decision” I made, but one that was forced upon me for lack of consistent help that I did not have to train, and that could take over if I needed to leave the premises.Even if I paid more than the going rate, it could be difficult to find anyone willing to take the job. Professionals, special education schools, and caregivers all cherry pick.

It was a major feat of logistics to get out to the doctor or dentist alone during many years, let alone to a job or typical social engagement. When my parents were terminally ill, I forced myself to do this but still was not able to spend as much time with them as I would have liked. On rare occasions when we did get out as a family I was still “on” and we typically went out in two cars so part of the family could make a quick retreat if necessary.

I did not have skills amenable to part-time remote work. Perhaps that, along with professional contacts, would have made a difference. Maybe not, though, since sometimes even when help arrived I was ready to collapse in exhaustion. Occasionally I collapsed while alone with my children, a few times in a pool of vomit, and my other kids had to keep their brother safe , clean me up and get me settled in bed, and decide whether to call H to come home. Any schoolwork they were counting on completing became secondary. They knew that their teachers would not understand.

Having a retired parent able to spend hours with my family might also have made a difference. (My parents did sometimes care for my other children before they became terminally ill, and helped us out with many of our expenses.) As I mentioned in an earlier post, I would help my children with childcare if still in good health, even for a disabled child.

When my child went into residential services three shifts of people did what I did during time when school was out, and two shifts of people did what I did on school days. Staff had access to training and support provided by the agency and staff in his group home is not permitted to work unlimited hours. (I think 12 hours is the max.)They call 911 when there is a medical or behavioral emergency.

I remind myself of this every time a new acquaintance innocently asks why I did not “work”, since I seem to be such a well-educated person. And having written all this, I think I am going to spend more time seeing what I can do to bring the need for funding for respite houses for families raising autistic children, and for adult residential services into the political limelight in our state. There are many families in our state caring for adults who have aged out of school services, whose children are on interminable waiting lists, as well as families with children at home who do not receive respite.

I would like to read the book, but probably not right away. Thanks, alh, for bringing it to our attention.

27

I read the book alh.

I liked a lot of what AMS had to say.It was interesting to read the “half truths” and I found myself nodding my head a lot. She makes a good point that there are circumstances (such as having a child with special needs) can alter the plan considerably. I also agree that care-giving is very undervalued and underpaid, but then I wonder who would pay for it. In my perfect world we would have more resources for child care, elder care and care for persons with special needs.

PG makes a good point in post # 23 that the choice (if it is a choice) to not have paid employment can have significant financial drawbacks later. I have too many friends who are now divorced or widowed who have found that out.

D and I have discussed this. She recently married and would like children, she also has a career she loves. I worked full time when D was young, but 5 years later when S was born he had health issues, H was traveling a lot for his job and I was not able to find a work situation that could work… Things were much less flexible then. I am hoping with new technology, work from home etc. it will be easier for the next generation. Admittedly, the corporate world has a long way to go.

That said, H and I have seriously discussed living near D and SIL when we retire. Part (not all) of this decision is with the idea that we could help serve as back up to make it possible for her to continue in a career.

28

I am very interested in the discussion, and plan to post after I have read the book–hope no one will object if it’s necessary to revive the thread at that point!

I have sometimes quoted my postdoctoral adviser (mostly silently, to myself): “If there is no solution, there is no problem.” For me, it reduces some of the stress of conflicting demands, at least.

29

Frazzled2thecore: Thank you for taking the time to write that. I would much rather read your book than Slaughter’s,

Do you have time to expand on the social programs which need to be put in place to help families in your situation? Perhaps they provide the model for what many need, even if not in as desperate a situation as you describe. It is inconceivable to me you were able to do all you did and I am so sorry you had to. I am amazed and so impressed you have the energy at this point to become politically involved as an advocate. Thank you. I don’t know how you have any emotional or physical reserves left at all.

When my children were young, they were chronically ill with unpredictable hospitalizations. My husband frequently was traveling. He did not have a choice about that. We needed his salary. I was not “working.” Usually my mother or one of my sisters would come stay with me, just in case a child had to be hospitalized, because I would need to stay with that child and someone else had to stay with the others. One thing I discovered staying in the hospital was that the set-up for very young children pretty much assumed a parent was there. And not every child did have a parent available. My memory of that time is really a blur, but even then I could see this was a huge problem for many families.

At one point, I called around trying to find out what help would be available to me, at a moment’s notice, if a family member couldn’t get to me quickly. Everyone lived a plane ride away. The best I could do was a visiting nursing service that was prohibitively expensive for most families. If we had round the clock government daycare, with a drop-in option, that would have solved my problem. That would take some taxes. Some would have to pay who didn’t use it. I think it would be worth it. It would benefit many families in many ways. imho.

One thing Slaughter points out is that when parents are forced exclusively into a care giving role, society may be losing out, because those individuals aren’t able to live up to their full potential. We all lose the gifts they had to offer us. It becomes a matter of self-interest to society, if not a moral obligation.

edit: I am not sure Slaughter made the “moral obligation” leap. That may just be me.

FallGirl: Please correct my posts if I mischaracterize her writings.

Frazzled: I am not “liking” your post because it is just too heartbreaking. Thank you again for sharing your story and point of view.

30

I’ve talked from day 1 with my daughter about choosing a career or designing a career for herself that will allow her some flexibility if she and her husband choose to have someone at home more and if she wants to be that person. In my head, those career options tend to be traditional female roles. But thankfully in the last few years we have watched lots of women create careers and roles that just did not exist 20 years ago so I think there are many more opportunities out there for flexibility than there used to be.

The value of that career and the importance of choosing wisely has been driven home to her in the past few years. She watched me step up to the plate and work full-time to support the family. I hope that image is working internally as she starts to think and choose a career path.

@alh …I’ve just told her that it may surprise her how much her thoughts on family and career might change and that it is a huge struggle for both parents to work full-time demanding careers and still be the parent she will want to be. It can be done for sure. Many do it. However, the constant struggle and balance may not be something she enjoys. I would LOVE for her to choose something in the medical field ( OT, ST, PT, NP, RN, etc) since I am very familiar with all of those career paths and I feel they are reasonably high paying fields with unlimited flexibility options. As an RN, I literally walked across the street to HR whenever I was ready to switch units/shifts/ etc. to meet the changing needs of my family. I have amazing flexibility and still even more now even with a graduate degree.

I’ve preached the value of flexibility to my nieces and nephews as well and I have to say it pains me to see one of my nieces pursuing an engineering degree when I have seen that career path be so demanding and unflexible for young women. I am super proud of her, don’t get me wrong. She is amazingly smart and going to a top school. I’ve just seen many female engineers struggle with the 8-6 grind with young kids, drop out of their jobs/careers completely for 5-10 years when the kids are young, re-emerge and try to work full-time with kids in jr. high and high school and then realize they need flexibility more than ever! Maybe my niece can create a contracting niche for herself and can find a career path within ME that will work for her and her family…I’ve just never seen it (my husband is an engineer).

31

There are many people who balance two real careers and family life and do pretty darn well at both. It is dismissive to say otherwise, just like criticizing SAHMs.

So it troubles me that:
She wants young couples to think about these questions before they start families (beyond any couple need to discuss everything before they start families, including evaluating whether their relationship will last 18 yearfs)

We are going to talk to our daughters (likely) and encourage them to minimize their aspirations by saying … it is just too hard …

We are still clinging to outdated models of family that think caregiving is a female role and career focus is a male role, despite the fact that people vary in talents and interests and ,more, and that this focus can and should change in life.

We are not considering two career oriented people who do not seek out the most high pressure jobs, I mean neither one does, during key family raising times (pre-school, elderly parent needs, troubled teens, etc).

We are excluding the possible use of hired help, from very high quality day care to very high quality elder care to simply having someone else clean the house and mow the lawn (both very time consuming). And yes, day care can be very hiqh quality and offer intellectual stimulation, socialization and energy levels (with enough staff) that most moms could not just provide at home.

Are these not limiting the choices of this new generation of women (likely) in both careers and family ?

While it is lying to say that it will not be difficult and sacrifices will need to be made, this sentence seems to imply that someone needs to “lean back” rather than “lean in” or you can’t start a family. My children are great and provide me with a lot of things that nothing else could have, but I have muddled through the various challenges, kept working hard, and have done well at work as well at home. Obviously, a child or teen with problems of any serious nature would require some rejuggling of one or both careers.

I personally would not have considered being physically separated from my family for any length of time, somehow being there most of the time is important (leaving some room for travel and working late).

I don’t know if either the play or a work event would be so urgent that I would make serious changes to work or family. Sometimes something has to be skipped and I think really what needs to be skipped is the guilt about it. Either miss the play or reschedule or find someone to cover the work event and move on. Maybe take a lateral to a different type of job that is a bit more flexible when you need to, and hit one out of the park on that one.

32

PickOne1: I may be misinterpreting her ideas. If you have time to read the book, I 'd be interested in your thoughts. And I am happy to be corrected. I really think she is about as far away as possible from the idea caregiving is a female responsibility. She wasn’t raised that way and hasn’t lived that way.

I get she is very aggravating to lots of people for lots of reasons.

One thing she proposes is life stages which alternate competing and caregiving, thus allowing each individual to reach maximum professional potential. This was an interesting idea to me. I don’t see how it works well with same age couples but it could for those with an age gap great enough to allow one to establish a career before taking on the caregiving role. I have now identified a handful of couples in my extended social circle where this did happen very successfully.

That sort of long term planning is probably not too realistic. It makes sense to me in choosing a spouse, (more so than height :slight_smile: )but doubt it will to anyone else.

33

I agree that choosing flexible jobs is probably more compatible with family life. Some necessary professions are not going to ever have flexible hours. I don’t want those individuals to have to forego having families if they want them. Do they need to choose a spouse who does have a career with flexible hours? Or who is willing to pass up career opportunities to be on the parent track? One problem I see is high-powered, type A, sorts of people are frequently attracted to other high-powered, type As. Is it justified to tell them they can’t have it all? Maybe it is difficult to sympathize with their “plight” because it frequently is an elitist sort of problem. On the other hand, those individuals are sometimes contributing a lot to society. And although some choose to work high pressure, more than full-time hours, for very high salaries… others have no choice but to work high pressure, more than full-time hours for very low salaries that don’t allow for high-quality child care. And they, too, are sometimes contributing a lot to society. So the solutions that work for the high earners should provide some sort of model for the low earners. If I am following that part of the argument she makes. FallGirl?

In this country, caregiving is a personal family responsibility. Should it be a societal responsibility? That is one of the questions I took away from the book.

Everything I read tells me birthrates are down among college educated women. Why? Do we think it is a problem? I am not really convinced it is.

adding: Thank you to everyone for posting. This is really on my mind and I appreciate having you to discuss it with. I’m off-line the rest of the day.

34

I intend to read it. Too late for me, but something for my sons and DILs to contemplate.

I had a crazy, type A job until I had children. I assumed I would go back to work when the kids got older, but never did. H also had a crazy, type A job that involved lots of traveling, we moved at certain critical junctures, there were health/family issues along the way, I discovered I loved raising my kids, etc. I have felt economically trapped. (Love H, no thought of divorce, but I do feel the vulnerability.)

I wish I had pursued part time work when the kids were little. Okay, I did have some small jobs, but some regular, consistent work to train everyone that momma works so it wouldn’t be assumed that I would be the one who could rescue in time of need.

35

@carachel2 I am an engineer and think it is actually a fairly flexible field. The trend seems to be away from long-term corporate employment with a lot more consulting type, shorter term jobs. I also have many female collegues who successfully did take years off or worked part-time before their children were in school. And at least you are paid enough to buy high quality child care, summer camps, etc.

High quality child care and summer camps can be really great experiences for kids.

While it is a male-dominated field, the work tends to be less subjective than other fields, in other words if you do good work, your collegues and managers, male or female, will see that and you will get respect, promotions, or flexibility.

And, yes, a lot of work can be done from home … probably up to 80% or higher of your weekly work … especially if you have good communication skills like reading and writing good emails.

I personally do not think working from home with small children around and no child care is viable from a family or work perspective, so when children are small, you need day care or someone coming in to care for children (TV is not a nanny) or ability to work in evenings and have spouse watch kids, etc. But certainly working from home makes it much easier to meet the bus, provide after-school care, etc, and with flexible hours, maybe you work from 9-11pm, after kids are asleep to get to 8 hours instead.

36

@PickOne1 …I LOVE to hear that!! I should not have generalized so much I think! My husbands job is tied to manufacturing and he is older and i guess just has always sought out traditional engineering roles. I love that contract work is so readily available. Is this ME? BioE?

37

I don’t think we should assume it’s women that can take a step back. In my case it was my H that changed up his career when my job started requiring a ton of overnight travel and the kids were too young to navigate before and after school on their own. You have to be flexible and not rigid as your marriage progresses and kids enter the picture.

I also don’t think that a “parent” needs to be at every school event, every sporting event, every extra-curricular activity that coaches and teachers dream up…if you choose to have kids and work spouses can certainly “figure out” what is meaningful and what is not within the K-12 education system.

I think people have to be realistic when they decide to start a family what the give and take is emotionally and financially. Most often I don’t think young parents know until after the baby is born, but it doesn’t take long to figure it out. I don’t think you can plan for this. From a female perspective I’ve known plenty of women who swore they were returning to work…and didn’t and just as many who claimed they would stay at home…and didn’t.

And really, you can hire folks to clean your house, provide quality day care or you can find a job that has more flexibility if needed. My H and i worked very hard at our j-o-bs and juggled the kids’ needs. Both our parents worked so we were products of a very unusual -for-the-times 50-60s upbringing. I don’t think we suffered from not having parents at our sides constantly growing up and I don’t think my kids have suffered and I think they can envision what it takes to get married and start a family.

I think it is important for kids, male and female, to understand that there are sacrifices no matter what. I think there are always sacrifices when you make a life-altering decision. Those types of lessons generally get learned along the way so shouldn’t come as a ‘big surprise’. And very few things in life are enjoyable 24/7 365. Pragmatic perhaps, but there is a kernel of truth.

38

Interesting perspectives here. AMS acknowledges in the book that she has a privileged position and for many families working long hours is not tied to a lucrative and fulfilling career, but necessary to make ends meet.

I’m not sure how the alternating caregiving and competing would work in real life. As someone who left my career in a management position to be a caretaker, I ended up re-entering in an entry level job. I have moved up (a little) but the reality is that my chance to be back where I was is lost forever. So if both members of a couple did the trade off thing, they might both find themselves in this position. And opportunities do not always appear at the most convenient time to make this work.

39

I am curious to read this book. My thesis was on Two Profession Couples, then was published as a shorter book. I found 3 patterns, with wives and some husbands pulling in the reins on their careers. Other couples were equally ambitious, but found novel ways to handle childcare. For example, one woman formed a group, bought a house across the street from the hospital, and set up an accredited childcare center. It was so good, it soon developed a waiting list.

Most of what I studies and wrote about 35 years ago is still relevant. I am curious what new info this book has to say on the subject.

40

I think it’s been a relevant topic since the late 40s when my H’s and my mother’s were in college. They both had advanced degrees and both married 'later" and clearly didn’t go to college for an MRS degree although clearly they both married and had children or we wouldn’t be here. Unusual, perhaps, but the topic is not “new.” My kids will be third generation balancing the work/kids challenge.