another example of when science meets false beliefs

As some wisely pointed out, human beings have changed the plants we eat, have been doing so for about 6000 years, hybridizing, cross pollinating and so forth. The wheat we eat today is not the wheat in the song “America, the Beautiful”, there are no “amber waves of grain”, the wheat grown today is short and stubby and fat, both to increase yields and make it easy to harvest (and it may or may not be as nutritious as what we once harvested).

@gmt: Of course there is a profit motive, take it from me, Monsanto is not doing that out of the goodness of their hearts, beancounters have no hearts. in some ways, it is no different than drug dealers giving their products away for free, then getting people hooked. GMO seeds from what I know are like hybrid seeds, in that you cannot do what you do with heirloom plants, you cannot save the seeds from the plants to plant next year, the genetic changes in the seeds get lost in the children that spring from those seed. more importantly, you get gmo eggplants in there, and suddenly there is a clamor for GMO grains and tomatoes and so forth, so they are doing what marketing people do, create a new market.

as far as GMO’s go, the problem isn’t with GMO’s per se, it is that they are being allowed to do the modifications without any significant testing of what it might do to those who eat them. Yeah, I hear those who say we have been hybridizing plants for thousands of years, but that is cross breeding plants, plants whose genes we routinely are exposed to because we have eaten those plants and plant products. Make a nectarine by crossing a plum and a peach, those genes are already part of what our body reconizes. But take something like a gene from a pig being put in a tomato to make it insect resistant, or a gene from a frog to make a bean resistant to herbicides, we don’t know what the impact is to human beings. The assumption is it will cause no harm, but we don’t know, because they haven’t been tested, it is just assumed they are okay. I don’t think GMO’s should be banned willy nilly or not used, but I think that it is much like Michael Crichton’s criticism of gene science in Jurassic Park, he said that they are doing these things in secret, patenting the genes, and the FDA rather than requiring them to show these modified foods are safe, takes their assurances they are. For all we know, a modified tomato might cause allergic reactions or inflammation, a genetically modified plant might cause problems with endocrine systems or cause genetic damage that leads to cancer, that is my problem. There is also the potential that modified pig genes that work in a tomato plant to suppress insect damage, might end up jumping to other species and cause a blight, for example, because there has been little work done on that.

It doesn’t mean GMO’s aren’t safe, it means we are assuming safety in a field where a lot of things are murky.

As far as gene therapy goes, it didn’t really pan out, they thought it would allow curing diseases like cancer and such, and it hasn’t really worked. However, what the latest and greatest in biotech is in studying someone’s genome and using that to determine how to treat them. For example, there is excitement about cancer therapy that in effect uses the genetic basis of the person’s immune system to go after cancer, it is individualized, and the article I read said it is working on cancers that standard chemo and radiation don’t do well with.

@musicprnt - I can’t like your last post enough!

Most people wrongly assume that GMO crops are created by a kind of fancy hybridizing. That is not true at all. One of Monsanto’s first GMO crops was “roundup ready corn”. It contains genetic material from petunias, and also from a bacteria. The bacteria, for reasons that are still unknown, are resistant to roundup (an herbicide that generally kills all herbaceous plants). The petunia, in it’s legume way, carries this trait throughout the corn plant, so it doesn’t end up in some parts and not in others. The three are combined in a laboratory by being bombarded at each other in the hopes that melding will happen rather than the usual destruction. It works very rarely, but if when they get a few viable seeds, they can reproduce them endlessly.

Other factors to consider - what if we end up with a plant that we cannot kill? Recently a field of illicit GMO wheat was found in Oregon, and then in Montana. In Montana it had been studied 11 years before. How was it still there?

What if we create resistant weeds and/or insects by this practice? Of course this is happening. Just like with antibiotic resistant bacteria. Only, antibiotics are rather necessary in the medical world. GMO crops are not. I went to a lecture about this given by a man from the Union of Concerned Scientists (them again!). He pointed out that there are thousands of wild subspecies for just about all the food crops we grow. Traditional agricultural experimenting and hybridizing could yield many “pest resistant eggplants”, but they are not bankrolled by the big Ags because they cannot be patented.

About the Oregon (and Montana) wheat:
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2014/09/genetically_modified_wheat_fou.html

“said that they are doing these things in secret, patenting the genes, and the FDA rather than requiring them to show …”

Can’t patent genes. That boat has sailed. Ask the SCOTUS. :slight_smile:

Gene therapy was not about cancer, BTW.

They can and have patented seeds. And then if pollen drift brings their GMO corn to some non-GMO field, they sue the farmers. Even if the farmers are organic farmers and don’t want that pollen, they are told they don’t own their own crop seed. They take the men who “clean seeds” to court. Monsanto is pure evil.

There was a story in our local paper about a young lady who was undergoing chemotherapy. She was having lots of problems where they didn’t believe she would get better. After some testing, they realized she was missing a specific gene. This missing gene amplified the chemotherapy side affects. The doctors adjusted her chemo and she improved.

In the future, besides treating our illness, they will make adjustments to our treatments based on our specific genetic code or traits.

This will all take time. Not sure if I will see the benefits or my children.

" With fish oil, there are other benefits to it that may make it worth taking, and there so far isn’t conclusive proof it isn’t worth anything. The same thing was said about taking folic acid to prevent homocysteine from destroying artery walls and allowing plague to attach, that is was ‘witch doctory’, these days it is de rigeur to have people taking folic acid"

I go to a Longevity clinic that prescribes bioidentical hormones, many supplements, and gives you numerous blood tests. Apparently nobody gets tested for homocysteine levels until they come into the hospital after having a heart attack or stroke, and their homocysteine levels are high. However, since my clinic tests for things before you actually have a heart attack or stroke, my test showed a high homocysteine level, even though all other risks were extremely low. I might not know there was anything messed up until I ended up in the hospital. Now they give me a combination of folic acid and vitamin B, and my homocysteine levels have come way down.

Witch doctory or being proactive? If you don’t test, you don’t know. I completely believe in being tested for all this stuff and taking action on it. My HDL is generally around 100 now, which is pretty high, and supposedly a good thing. It was much lower before I started taking fish oil.

I have all sorts of brain issues in my family history, and I’m taking whatever action I can to prevent the same things from happening to me. I think the OP is dreaming, that none of this stuff matters. I have taken action on a number of different things, and unless you believe that health is all just a mystery that nobody will ever solve, being proactive is the best way to protect yourself.

Actual USPSTF recommendations on mammograms at http://www.uspreventiveservicestaskforce.org/Page/Topic/recommendation-summary/breast-cancer-screening :

The draft recommendation changes at http://screeningforbreastcancer.org/ are:

Mammograms do involve radiation, which can increase the risk of breast cancer. So women who do not have a family history or other indication of high risk of breast cancer may want to rethink the idea of automatically getting mammograms at age 40. The potential adverse effects of ultimately unneeded medical treatment after a false positive mammogram also need to be considered.

The same consideration of potential adverse effects of ultimately unneeded medical treatment after a false positive is also relevant to PSA screening for prostate cancer in men. More medical care is not necessarily better in all cases.

Naturally, radiologists and oncologists want to encourage more mammograms, while urologists want to encourage more PSA screening.

“There actually is generally a profit motive because modified seeds may need more water/ nutrients & require pesticides to grow.”

Looks like someone’s reading hippy-dippy scare science! The point of GMO is often LESS pesticide. I think it’s a shame that scientific progress is being lost because people who don’t know what they are talking about scare others.

busdriver11 in twenty years I bet cholesterol will not even be paid attention to. if you knew how it became important is so bizarre…it was made up as an issue and society ran with it. every time I hear somebody say a cheeseburger is a heart attack on a bun I laugh. they have it so ingrained in their minds and it is bogus. when I challenge someone I feel like a person in Spain in 1491 saying the earth is not flat.
here is some interesting info
http://www.nature.com/news/cholesterol-limits-lose-their-lustre-1.12509

“busdriver11 in twenty years I bet cholesterol will not even be paid attention to. if you knew how it became important is so bizarre…it was made up as an issue and society ran with it. every time I hear somebody say a cheeseburger is a heart attack on a bun I laugh. they have it so ingrained in their minds and it is bogus. when I challenge someone I feel like a person in Spain in 1491 saying the earth is not flat.
here is some interesting info”

They have changed their guidelines for LDL, however, that doesn’t mean everything should now be ignored. As they figure out better guidance, I’m glad that they release it and change their advice. I wouldn’t want the scientists and doctors to stick to the old information, just to be consistent.Sometimes you have to evolve, and change your thinking. Should we stick with the thought that the earth is flat?

And now they say the best thing on the cheeseburger is the burger. Throw away the bun.

A clarification re: plant patents. I want to straighten out the terminology a bit. Here in the US, only asexually reproduced plants can be patentedi.e. plants that can be propagated by a cutting etc. (tubers and potatoes are excluded), because one of the statutory requirements is that the plant has to be the exact genetic copy of the parent. Examples of patented plants are new varietues of roses.

Here is more info for anyone interested:

http://www.uspto.gov/patents-getting-started/patent-basics/types-patent-applications/general-information-about-35-usc-161#heading-4

So, the “plant patent” route will not work for seeds, and saying that Monsanto has “plant patents” on its seeds is technically incorrect. What they have is a different type of patents - utility.

And here is a summary of GMO myths - it comes not from a right-wing rag but from NPR:

http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2012/10/18/163034053/top-five-myths-of-genetically-modified-seeds-busted

Right there. Some of his crop had been cross pollinated by the wind. He did not purchase any Monsanto seed and therefore he did not participate in any copyright agreement that the next generation’s seeds belonged to Monsanto and not to him. Monsanto sued him and won (even if they got no money from him).

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/20/supreme-court-monsanto_n_2720057.html

And that is why they are giving away “free” pest resistant eggplant seeds. Want to grow them again next year? You can’t legally save those seeds, you have to pay us. Multiply that by every GMO crop in every field in every country.

The Bowman case involved a farmer who bought mixed grain from a grain elevator, not from Monsanto. He lost. Pollen carries far for corn and even further for soybeans. How can anyone save seed and know for sure that there’s no GMO cross pollinated seed in there? They can’t really. If you’re an organic farmer, you should be legally able to save your seed and grow it the next year but what is the chance that it is 100% organic seed considering pollen drift? For corn, soybeans, and canola, it is a very small chance in the US.

Greenwitch, read the entire article. That farmer took more actions, and the court agreed were willful acts leading to infringement:

Seed saving? That’s another myth. Even in my childhood days, my parents did not save seeds. You have to let a part of your crop to go to seed to be able to have viable seeds, and most farmers just don’t have the capacity to do so. Seeds were bought in the spring for a long time before Monsanto stepped in:

Plus, patenting something is the exact opposite of doing it in secret. That’s the whole point of the patent system – you get the protection of the patent laws in exchange for spilling your trade secrets.

Farmers still do save seeds. Maybe not as much as in the past, but they do and they should be able to. IMO, if someone’s pollen drifts onto my crop, it should be mine now. I’m trying to find a neutral word - maybe “mixing”. For an organic farmer, such pollen drift would be considered contamination. For Monsanto, it’s a legal avenue for them to pursue damages against the farmer. Why? Why couldn’t the farmer pursue damages against Monsanto?

Especially since nature will do what nature does. Studies show that 50% of nonGMO corn and soybeans and more than 80% of nonGMO canola are mixed/contaminated/“stolen” with GMO material.

Even when scientists are working under “controlled” conditions, things escape. Of course they escape during regular use too. There are also plant “volunteers” - something that might have kept that GMO wheat growing for 11 years after it was supposedly done in Oregon.

http://www.cropchoice.com/leadstrygmo013107.html

Monsanto also uses techniques reminiscent of J. Edgar Hoover’s goon squads. Sending investigators to an AA meeting? Arriving at a farm and coming on the property and taking samples without permission? Threatening people?

http://www.centerforfoodsafety.org/files/cfsmonsantovsfarmerreport11305.pdf

I can’t copy and paste from a PDF but there are 84 pages about legal action on farmers by Monsanto. Page 30 (28 in the booklet) is pretty damning. One case involves a farmer whose signature was forged, by a dealer that Monsanto already knew had a history of forging signatures. They went after the farmer anyway, for violating an agreement that he didn’t sign and had never even seen.

http://www.cropchoice.com/leadstryc304.html?recid=1188

Monsanto’s bullying is bad enough, but the really bad things about GMOs are:

1 - We aren’t really sure what mixing bacteria and pharmaceuticals into food products ultimately does to us (although I’m willing to keep an open mind about this one since it’s too early for evidence either way)

2 - They were primarily designed to further the use of herbicides, particularly Roundup, not to make plants healthier, stronger, etc.

3 - They have created many herbicide resistant weeds, which was inevitable. Amaranth, Giant Ragweed and Horsetail
are very resistant to herbicides and very destructive. (why can’t butterfly plants become the resistant super weeds?)
http://weedscience.org

4 - They promote a monoculture in each crop which is dangerous in case a virus, bacteria, insect, fungus, etc., attacks that particular crop (as happened during the Irish potato famine).

5 - They are overwhelmingly used. That’s not a GMO quality, but it has become our reality. Most farmers only know how to grow corn and soybeans in most parts of the US.

" For Monsanto, it’s a legal avenue for them to pursue damages against the farmer. Why? Why couldn’t the farmer pursue damages against Monsanto?"

Anyone can sue anyone. The lawsuit’s success depends on presenting enough facts to support the stated cause for action. Has Mondanto used this “legal avenue” everyone is talking about? Monsanto’s lawyers are not stupid to waste resources on frivolous lawsuits. Only cases where there was some willful infringement go forward:

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2013/05/13/183603368/supreme-court-rules-for-monsanto-in-case-against-farmer

The farmer did not simply save the seeds. He used Roundup to kill all other soybeans and then collected the seeds of the remaining plants in this case and then argued that Monsanto was precluded from suing him by the doctrine of patent exhaustion. The SCOTUS sided with the company saying that patent exhaustion doctrine was not applicable, because the farmer copied and made new seeds. The doctrine allows you, as a purchaser, use and re-sell a patented product, but it does not let you make and use copies of the product:

You can read the SCOTUS decision here:

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/11-796_c07d.pdf

I’m not saying that Monsanto is an angel, but when its opponents begin to twist the reality, it reflects badly upon them.