<p>
</p>
<p>And is blaming the family of the victim and questioning the victim’s parental standards acceptable? </p>
<p>“A college simply cannot instill and teach that which the family has failed to do over 18 years.”</p>
<p>Post 8, 26, and 60 say it all!</p>
<p>My intent wasn’t to blame the parents but rather to express my opinion that blaming the colleges isn’t the answer either. The colleges do not have the amount of time or relationship with the kid to help him establish good judgment or internal control nor does it have the ability to monitor each and every kid’s behavior on a minute to minute basis. I do not, even for a nanosecond, apologize for both thinking and expressing that parents have more ability to help a child maneuver the gauntlet of young adulthood than a college does. </p>
<p>I have said nothing hypocritical, and I do not harbor a TENTH of the anger toward you that you do toward me. </p>
<p>xiggi, I would <em>really</em> appreciate it if you would keep your “spinning rage” in check and not attack me any further. Like you, I am APPALLED AND DEVASTATED at the loss of a young and promising life. CHILL. peace, </p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>No. It’s not. And yet, there are pages and pages and pages and pages and pages of your attacks on the Duke lax players, their families, and their university when they are VICTIMS of an unscrupulous DA out for his own interests. You even brought it into THIS thread with THIS comment:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Surely we should forgive these boys their little “lack of judgment” and not seek to blame them or their parents. Right?</p>
<p>Talk about hypocrisy… :rolleyes:</p>
<p>cptofthehouse~</p>
<p>EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT post. Thank you.</p>
<p>Xiggi, I am not sure where your problem with this thread is. I have always felt that your posts were excellent and to the point, even if there were key points that did agree with my opinions. Although as a parent of 5 kids, I know the grief and anger and blame and guilt a parent feels when his child is endangered, and can see, and have seen parents blame everything for what happened from themselves, to the child, to the school, to the authorities, to other students, the kids’ psychiatrist, the kids sibliings–in a state of non involvement with my logic on track, I know that these things usually happen as a result of an unfortunate mix of bad judgement, bad timing, bad luck, unawareness, etc. There is plenty of blame to spread around to everyone involved, and I cannot blame a parent in that situation to feel anger and blame everyone and everything. I can also tell you that in the cases where I personally knew the “players”, the parents blame themselves terribly. Were they too strict, too controlling, too trusting, too naive? Could they have done more? What did they do wrong? I can no more blame the ones who trusted their children so much, as I can those who did not. Sometimes you get a kid who are born risktakers, and there comes a time when he has to bear those risks, and sometimes a careful, controlled kid makes an unlucky, unsafe decision that is totally out of character for him with dire consequences.<br>
But we all have some idea of what type of kids we have. Yes, I know, that these horrible tragedies can occur to any of my boys, but I also know that there are some of them at higher risk just because of they way they are and behave than others. If I had been as fortunate as Berurah to have all of my kids with a strong inner control and the types to avoid these misfortunes, I would sleep a lot better, even knowing that it is no guarantee that the status quo would be the future. And even though I am told that I am a pessimist for the most part, I would feel more secure about such kids not getting into trouble. It make sense, doesn’t it?<br>
As to blaming the schools, the rules, etc, though I hope I can be look at a catastrophe with courage and reasonableness, I’m sure emotion will take over for me as I am not that strong, and I know it. But in the situations where such tragedies occurred in my world, the largest element of blame surely had to go to the student, even with the deepest sympathy and a shake of the head of the capriciousness of fate, when someone who does not regularly indulge in risktaking, did not take that much of a risk, just had some bad luck and bad timing along with his bad judgement.
As for those parents with riskseeking kids, what can we do? Sometimes sending the kid off is a good solution, sometimes it leads to disaster. It all depends on the degrees of riskseeking and the opportunities that arise. However, there are parents who have contributed to the activities of their kids by keeping a blind eye on questionable activities, and some who have even abetted them as “just being kids”, and with “when I was that age…”. These parents do make it more difficult for the rest of us when they allow illegal substances in their homes for kids, allow freedoms that their kids are abusing, allow situations that just statistically favor trouble. Though, I grieve for those parents and kids as well, I know that a thread of feeling that the tragedy was coming is there for all who know the situation. So even among many understanding parents, there is a bit of the “holier than thou” when it comes to some families whose rules or lack thereof are such that it makes life more dangerous for all. There are misguided parents out there–that is a fact,
So how should we feel as parents? If we have kids that seen unlikely to get into such situations, shouldn’t we feel more relaxed about such kids, even knowing that things can change, than if we have a Superrisk kid? How should we feel about parents who kind of like having “hell raiser” kids, or look the other way? How should we feel about certain kids whose behaviour records point towards disaster? I am really interested in getting a level headed, articulate young person’s view about this, as my communication lines with my kids are not as reliable as some parents’.</p>
<p>This may be a bit off topic, but I had one of those rare, but treasured opportunities to have a long (2 hr) talk last night with my s who is home for Thanksgiving. Given that (1) my s. also goes to college in Tx, and (2) the kid from UT who died happened to be from our home town, we talked a bit about whether there is any trickle down effect of what happens at the big U in Austin to his small school a few hrs away. He proceeded to tell me that this year, his school lost several students to auto accidents… the first being a freshman who was home over Labor Day weekend. He’d barely been in college for 2 weeks. The poor kid overcorrected a turn and went into oncoming traffic. As tragic as it is, young adults have a high mortality rate, for all sorts of tragic reasons. This by no means condones excessive drinking. It just makes us realize that young adulthood is a very risky time for even usually responsible kids.</p>
<p>My s. is usually pretty responsible. However, in the course of our talk, he happened to mention that he and his roommates were moving their bar-b-que grill across campus in the back of one of the roommates trucks. For some reason (a) the owner of the truck wasn’t there at the time, so a friend was trying to drive the stick shift, and (b) (and HERE’S the kicker!) they only had bungee cord to tie it down with, and it was top-heavy, so my s. sat in the back of the open pick-up to hold the heavy metal grill while a person with no experience driving a standard shift drove the thing. I almost had a heart attack!!! How stupid could he be?? Didn’t he realize how dangerous this was??? He insisted that they were only driving on campus, no faster than 15 mph (never leaving first gear) and that he considered it a “calculated risk”. :eek: Kids this age do stupid stuff. They succomb to peer pressure, they think they are invincible, and that bad stuff happens to “someone else”. There was a thread a few years back on stupid stuff we parents did in our youth. Several peiople did some pretty scary stuff. My own H. dove off of some big , BIG cliffs with his brother. I’d kill my kids if they did that! </p>
<p>I was a pretty responsible, straight-laced young adult. However, I once picked up a hitchhiker in the rain late one night, in an unfamiliar town, when I was alone. What a fool I was! But it was late, and rainy and I felt bad for the guy. In retrospect, I realize how incredibly dangerous that was. At the time it just seemed like a nice humanitarian thing to do. Sometimes even the most responsible people make bad decisions. We become more cautious as we go through more and more life experiences, and we become more conservative when we have something to conserve. The best we can do is hope that we have taught our kids well nd that they won’t make too many dumb mistakes along their life journeys. But, we can’t take these journeys for them, and we can’t keep them form learning a few life lessons of their own. We can only hope the consequences of their life lessons are small.</p>
<p>Now, all that said, it is after midnight and my 2 boys just headed out to Waffle House and to see how long the lines are at one of the stores offering some incredible deal on electronics at 5 am. I asked them to drive safely. I hope and pray that they do.</p>
<p>
Very well said. Some parents do like having the “hell raiser.” Their grief is no less real than a careful parent’s, but it is almost impossible not to have the thought cross your mind “We all saw that coming” when tragedy strikes. </p>
<p>None of us has perfect kids. But it is certainly adding fuel to the fire if there is a mentality in a family that celebrates, or admires, crazy antics that draw attention. Just this summer one of our more well known resident hell raiser families almost lost their 7th grade girl in a tragic jet ski accident. Last Christmas Eve another similar family did lose their teenage son in a drunk driving death. He was killed right on the main street by another hell-raiser who thought it would be funny to chase him in an automobile.</p>
<p>jym is so right that kids think they are invincible. And temperament does make a big difference in how likely a kid is to have any judgment at all. But let’s not throw up our hands & say “everybody does it.”</p>
<p>I haven’t been here for quite some time, but there are certain topics that, unfortunately, seem to polarize posters…and one of those is alcohol. When another a report of a child’s death comes out in the media, each parent takes it personally because we fear for our own children and the children of our friends. No one has “spinning rage”, but many hope and hope that the relationship that they’ve built with their child will protect them. </p>
<p>My D, who started college at 17 this fall, shared an experience at a Halloween party she attended this fall…she found a good friend from her dorm in a corner throwing up and not coherent from drinking. His friends told her to leave him alone and let him sleep it off. Instead, she called campus security and went with him to the campus infirmary where he had an IV started and was watched over night. Two days later, he sent her an e-mail that he didn’t know what had come over him, he’d never drunk alcohol before, didn’t know he would get drunk from the amount he drank, and thanking her for taking care of him. I’m certain he’s a nice kid with a strong relationship with his parents…but these are kids and they make mistakes in judgement. Some mistakes are deadly. Xiggi’s point here is very well taken. Each of these tragedies should send a message to be alert, that we, as parents, can NEVER know exactly what’s going to happen with our children and that casting blame on parents or our own kids or other kids is counterproductive. We should try to find innovative ways to keep these things from happening on campuses, at home, wherever. And we should pray for our kids.</p>
<p>
I’ve yet to read a single post where any parent stated he knows exactly what is going to happen with his own kid. I think evaluating any tragic situation is a GOOD thing if it is done to help prevent future tragedies. I’ve seen very clear, very predictable patterns among the “hell-raiser” families. Not surprisingly, the incidence of serious problems is much greater if kids have been raised without facing consequences for bad or stupid behavior. Nobody is saying a normally sensible kid is immune. Just far less likely to be a victim. Parental influence counts for something.</p>
<p>
Is anyone out there a prognosticator? Are any of you clairvoyant?? If so, please tell me the lottery numbers and where my kid will get into college. It’ll save me a lot of time and energy :)</p>
<p>Most of the posts here are excellent and I believe many of us have used this situation to look at ourselves and our children a little more closely, and perhaps even think more seriously about how we would handle some of the situations that other parents have had to face. In essence, that’s what a good message board is all about.</p>
<p>As always, I appreciate Xiggi’s posts and am always amazed by how incredibly mature they are given what I believe to be his fairly young age (at least in comparison to the rest of us!)</p>
<p>Just a small point of clarification-- I think xiggi first coined the “spinning rage” comment in post # 72. As quiltguru pointed out, this topic pushes people’s hot buttons, kinda like the political threads. We get emotional when we think of senseless deaths.
For now, I will focus on something elsesenseless— shopping on Black Friday!! I am off to get a 17" flat screen plasma monitor for $79!!</p>
<p>PEACE TO ALL!!! We don’t need to rehash any less-friendly remarks that have been made here. Let’s move on… :)</p>
<p>I have a responsible D who is a senior at Rice. She is a drinker (now 22) but has always managed herself well. I discussed this topic with her, especially in the context of my concern about her freshman brother (UPenn) who is more of a risk-taker. She estimated the percentage of freshman who drink at Rice at 80%. She said some don’t start until close to Christmas. She said if binge drinking is having 5 drinks in an evening, most of this 80% (including herself on many occasions) are binge drinkers. She said that is how college drinking works. She said her drinking patterns have changed a lot since she turned 21 and can visit with people over wine and food in restaurants. Brother estimates the percentage of freshman drinkers at Penn at higher than 80% and with his typical spin, says the non-drinkers have no social life and sit in their rooms and study all the time. He said he sees people weaving down the sidewalk who can’t even walk in a straight line.<br>
I do agree that this is a very emotional topic, and I, personally, am more concerned about the drinking in 8th and 9th grades. It’s all just starting too young, which is going to make the addiction issues worse and the reliance on alcohol as a social lubricant more prevalent.
As the parent of one high-risk and one “moderate” child, I wouldn’t say I “encourage” or am “proud” of the high-risk kid. I have learned to be accepting of the fact that I can give advice and make suggestions (and yell and scream on occasion), but I have little ability to significantly impact what goes on. I never gave up trying, but I understand the reality.</p>
<p>T0FG: thank you for your post; you make some very good points. As I have watched this thread spiral down into counterproductive nothingness, I have struggled to formulate into words exactly what the problem is. One of the things that concerns me with all of berurah’s posts is not so much WHAT is being said but HOW it is being said. I don’t mean to argue semantics here or anything since I am certainly not an expert, but frankly, I have felt deafened myself, after reading so many posts where every fifth word seems to be capitalized. I feel like we are being shouted at. </p>
<p>I recognize that people “speak” differently in person and via cyberspace, but if someone were speaking to me that way, in person, I would certainly react negatively, no matter what the words (which is very unfortunate, since they include many important points worth discussing in connection with this topic). I suspect that many people react this way when they read something that appears to be too over-zealous, over-defensive and over-emotional, and this makes the poster seem to have an attitude that is a little too “holier than thou” especially when coming from the very fortunate position of having raised kids who appear to be less at risk. One cannot help but wonder if she “protests to much”? And when we see such over-emphasis on the same points, readers can easily walk away feeling like, even though the words said one thing, the message was something else (“I am better than you”?) and they, in turn, become more defensive themselves. </p>
<p>For more serious topics like this, I think that most of us are here to try to share ideas and to participate in a discussion where there is true give and take, so that we can understand the issues better and maybe even walk away with something valuable that we can apply to our own lives, and it is very unfortunate when the “tone” of voice we hear reduces our discussion to nothing more than emotional attacks.</p>
<p>quiltguru~</p>
<p>My son, too, recently took care of someone who had a devastating drinking experience. I have not talked about it on CC as it was simply too traumatizing and close to my heart, but I can speak in generalities.</p>
<p>In his case, someone he knew became suicidal after consuming a relatively minor amount of alcohol. He made a direct and specific threat on his life, and my son stayed with him, even physically restraining him, until the police could come and take him to the hospital. My son went with him and stayed with him into the morning.</p>
<p>I spoke with the young man’s parents and both they and their son were very thankful to my son for his intervention. In fact, the parents termed my son a “magnificent young man” and a “marvelous friend.”</p>
<p>I have, at NO point in this thread, claimed that parents will know everything that their children were doing at college. Here are some quotes that I’ve made throughout the thread:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>xiggi is FAR from the only one on this thread who has expressed the sentiment that parents are not fully aware of what their children do. In fact, I and many others have stated this as well.</p>
<p>That said, I simply cannot embrace xiggi’s contention that the odds are equal with all kids. Clearly they are not, as cptfothehouse has so eloquently pointed out several times throughout this thread. She’s absolutely right, even if many do not want to admit it.</p>
<p>I actually had a loooooooooooooooooooong discussion with my college son about this thread yesterday. His first reaction was, “WHY would <em>anyone</em>
blame a college?” He also didn’t think the parents deserved the blame. In fact, he felt that each individual acts on choices in ways that are determined by nature + nurture. Hence, some kids are more risk-taking than others and are more prone to do impulsive or risky acts. Smart kid. :)</p>
<p>He then proceeded to thank his father and me for the guidance we had given him over the years and stated that the values/attitudes we helped to instill have served him well. </p>
<p>I would never have brought up parents if some of the first six posts on this thread had not talked about blaming/suing the college. Fact is, this entire incident is a tragedy of the highest order, no matter where the “blame” lies, and I don’t think ANYONE here has disputed that fact.</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>
scansmom~</p>
<p>I really thank you for your post and your input. You are right. We all communicate differently. I am one who tends to feel <em>very</em> constrained by internet communication. I communicate IRL a great deal through gestures which do not translate well to text-only: smiles (lots of 'em!!), laughs, hugs, light touches, etc. I am also a passionate communicator, so perhaps I do “punctuate” more than others with caps and such. Sorry to have “deafened” you! :o</p>
<p>Interestingly, a few months back, I had another post almost identical to yours directed toward me…and on the exact same subject: kids and alcohol. The poster said that I was holier-than-thou and thought a lot of myself because I happen to have kids (including four teens, currently) who do not struggle with these things.</p>
<p>A very short time later, I received <em>the</em> most lovely pm apology from her. She said that, in fact, she had a child who had some difficulties, and that she had had an unnecessarily defensive reaction to my posts. She said that the problem was HERS, not mine–that her disappointment with some things that were happening in her own life made her unfairly resentful of me and that she was sorry for expressing that publicly.</p>
<p>And I, in turn, shared that 1.) I had an untold amount of admiration for her for sharing that, and 2.) that I, too, have struggles as a parent, though in different areas. </p>
<p>A true meeting of the minds…and one which we both benefitted from.</p>
<p>I am genuinely sorry if my posts have offended you that greatly. :(</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>"“WHY would <em>anyone</em> blame a college?”</p>
<p>They’re educators, claiming (often quite loudly) that they “prepare students for life”, aren’t they? If they knew that 16% of the students who got into med school from the college were dropping out because they couldn’t handle the work adequately, they’d likely examine what was happening on campus - both in terms of the academics and the campus environment. Why should it be any different if 16% of the students are going to turn out to be alcoholics in the next 20 years (if they aren’t so already.) (Unless preparation for life as an alcoholic or heavy drinker is what they pride themselves on, which I highly doubt.)</p>
<p>It’s not a matter of blame. It’s just that some schools take their educational responsibility more seriously than others.</p>
<p>berurah…for whats it’s worth I find your posts genuine and filled with warmth.I always read with interest what you have to say and do admire your ability to calm and reassure others. I think this year in general there are less good helpful conversations than in the past on CC. I appreciate yours.</p>
<p>In general I think one has to read a post a few times to try to get the gist of what the poster is trying to get across. The readers state of mind and slant on the issue has a way of coloring what one reads. I know I do this.</p>
<p>Back to the OP - such a loss of a young person - no matter the cause - and what pain to endure during this holiday season. Our town has also experienced the loss of a wonderful girl during this holiday season - one who struggled thru many years - bright - pretty - well liked - just an amazing young lady who inspiried any who met her - she succumed to a life long illness 
We all feel the loss of her.</p>
<p>Is the pain any different?? NO! Our hearts and prayers go out to her family and friends - the same as for the loss of any young person - for any reason.</p>
<p>Hug your kids and wish them well as they leave home again to return to school - or to wherever they are heading… we just never know.</p>