Some students up the ante and take many dual enrollment, summer and virtual AP courses to supplement in school classes. And as you can imagine this can greatly impact class rank and becomes the game within the game.
In some schools that’s what it takes to contend for Val/sal.
I agree that this is one of the saddest threads ever as it applies to being Val/Sal vs. following one’s passion for the arts. BUT – I know firsthand of a case where following one’s passion for the arts led to the student not being in the top 10% of the graduating class. The student missed it by three places. The arts class was an extra class above and beyond the normal course load, an unweighted A over 8 semesters which had the effect of lowering the GPA. In this student’s case, I believe several colleges denied or waitlisted the student because of not being top 10%. The student’s weighted GPA was 4.2-something. More importantly, the student is, in my opinion, an interesting and intellectually curious person who would enrich any college campus.
My older D was Sal of her class. She did take zero hour, summer and online classes. She did that so she could fit on all the AP classes she wanted to take (she wanted the challenge, not the weighted grade) in a strong college prep curriculum, AND all the art and music classes she wanted to take. She had four years of orchestra and three years of art classes, none of which were weighted. And senior year she opted not to take AP stats because she just didn’t want to, and she knew full well by then that it would be the difference between Val and Sal. She wanted both arts and rigor, and she worked to fit both into her schedule—it was never about class rank for her and she wouldn’t have cared if the large number of unweighted electives had cost her a silly title. In addition, val and Sal were announced in late April. She had already accepted admission to her college. It certainly had no bearing on admissions. The honor was for one day–at graduation. The title really isn’t important enough to try and game the system to get it. I do understand the frustration in states like Texas where rank can be the deciding factor in admissions but it’s really unfortunate when 14, 15, 16 year old kids can’t take classes they enjoy and find interesting because they don’t carry a weighted grade.
I’m genuinely shocked and horrified to learn that there are kids coming out of junior high, not even in high school yet, who are tracking class rank and GPA to 3 decimal places, with an eye on the “competition” from other junior highs. Seriously? This kid is what? 13? Just turned 14? Tell his parents to take a deep breath and get a grip.
Imho parents are scared because this is a double block class so a real GPA killer. With one 4.0 class for three years and two for one year can do significant damage.
Are there any particular scholarships or whatever that the student may target the require valedictorian status to be eligible for?
If not, then it seems that rank-grubbing for valedictorian is pointless. Even if that is the case, there could be plenty of other reasons that one would not get such a scholarship as a valedictorian, if it is competitive or has other criteria, or is from a school that the student is no longer interested in.
Too much fuss for a kid still in ms. You can blame it on parents, but it’s still too early. Puh-lenty of vals and sals are rejected for incomplete thinking, this hyper focus on stats.
I think taking one or two arts classes is unlikely to knock a kid from number 1/2 to out of the top 10%. But that is why our school stopped ranking, because of loud complaints from parents of artsy kids that their kids couldn’t get into the top 10% and were suffering in admissions. However, these were kids who were taking 2+ arts classes every year. We have a very strong arts program and it’s not uncommon for the more talented kids to be in both band and chorus or both chorus and drama. My kid took 5 arts electives and was still close to the top of the top 10%. Though, as I said, we don’t have an extreme culture of trying to game class rank. Our school didn’t release any rank information other than deciles, and that only in senior year with the college information form. So, yes, the colleges do like to see top 10% but I don’t think they care if you are 1 or 2 or 3. In most cases, they don’t even know, unless you are 1, then they could tell that from the decile information. That’s how I know that my kid wasn’t valedictorian.
For what it’s worth, starting with this year’s freshman class our high school is stopping the weighting of classes. It will affect my younger daughter, but my current high schooler is in the weighted system. After reading this thread I applaud our high school for doing that (I wasn’t so sure when I first heard about it). Neither of my kids will probably crack the top 10 percent at their large HS, but I think they will come very close.
I did ask, however, how they will possibly figure out the val/sal with identical unweighted averages. They said they will parse things out based on ACT/SAT scores. I can imagine the angst that will cause.
My point is that there are so many things that can change over the next several years that will affect rankings, including a change in school policy. Enjoy music and art (studies show they increase brain function and improve math skills, BTW).
When colleges say 'rank is very important ’ they mean ‘top decile’, NOT exact rank.
(Most competitive high schools don’t rank because they know what matters and exact ranking is meaningless outside the high school while fostering negative attitudes in students.)
In addition, universities like students who practice art, if especially if the orchestra doesn’t ‘win awards’ and the student can write eloquently about why they chose a double block of art that’s unweighted, because evidence of learning for learning 's sake is highly sought out by adcoms. Key characteristics, such as consistency and having a social group based on an art will also be highky considered .
(if the parents are afraid, the student can ‘make it up’ by taking a dual enrollment class over the summer).
In 7th grade, my son had a friend whose older sister was that year’s high school valedictorian. My son and his friend were both taking Spanish 1 that year, which would count on their high school transcripts even though they had taken the course in middle school. The friend got a B in Spanish the second semester – and knew at that moment that he would never be valedictorian like his sister. It was a huge disappointment.
Middle school kids – especially those with older siblings – are definitely aware of high school issues.
^ that kid needed a talking to if that was a ‘huge disappointment’, to get a bit of perspective . What kind of family/environment do you live in?
Valedictorian and salutatorian titles are NOTHING but chocolate medals for kids, remnants of a time most hs students went straight to the workforce. Nowadays, it means nothing.
I’m in Texas so class rank is important, but in our district students can take the 3 and 4th year of fine arts classes as GPA exempt so give students incentive to keep taking them.
There are parents here who start planning in middle school. There are 3 courses 8th graders can take for HS credit but only for 4.0 and I guess there are theories/arguments etc if they are worth taking. I found this out after innocently asking a neighbor how her 8th grade daughter was enjoying orchestra. She told me it was fine, but she wouldn’t be continuing in high school because it wasn’t a 5.0 --and then she started to explain the differences of 4.0 vs. 5.0 and my eyes glazed. She told me she’d help me plan out my 6th graders courses but I’ve managed to avoid that lol.
FWIW I was married for 10 years before I found out my husband was Val of his high school. And I only found out because his mom sent us a box of his records she found. It just doesn’t matter.
My D gave up playing the clarinet after 8th grade (after 5 years), because she understood she had a chance to be val or sal in high school, and she understood the financial implications to us. Our Flagship State state gives a full tuition scholarship to val and sal, and she knew she had the academic chops to be competitive for these - and she ultimately was valedictorian.
It turned out she did not need the scholarship there because she hit the lottery and is finishing up her first year at Stanford. But I think a lot of this was her naturally competitive spirit when it comes to classwork, she is very bright and always went the extra mile on assignments because she wanted to, and understood that she would learn more by doing more.
My D admitted that she would have liked to continue playing clarinet and taking band, because she was finally getting much better at it, but she said that at the same time as saying she would have loved to take a family vacation to Hawaii - she understood it wasn’t in the cards we were dealt. By junior year, she knew she was ranked 1st in her class and understood it would have been very unlikely for anyone to knock her down 2 spots. So having the peace of mind that she had the safety of Flagship State made her senior year application process much easier.
There is no shame in taking the right schedule to play the class rank game, especially when it makes sense for your family situation.
I don’t think we are disagreeing. Part of the “strength of the individual kid’s overall performance”, is the rigor of the curriculum. My point was that in a school that offers 22 APs you don’t have to take the ridiculous number some College Confidential kids take. And you have to do well in them. There’s the classic answer from the Vassar Admissions officer to “Is it better to get an A in regular course or a B in an AP course?” She said, “It’s better to get an A in the AP course.” There’s a point where you’ve taken enough AP or equivalent AP courses. No one gets into top schools without superb recommendations, essays and something extra.
There is a huge difference between forgoing band for a $100,000+ scholarship and forgoing band for a pat on the back on one day and a title that no one but you actually cares about. I think many of us would agree that for that kind of money it might be worth skipping band. It’s really rather unbelievable that adults would structure a competition in such a way that kids would feel pressured to do that though.
The OP’s nephew isn’t in middle school-- it says he is a sophomore. It sounds like this is an oddly structured school which only puts the upperclassmen together in the same actual school.
It sounds like he’s number three at best. I assume you don’t know whether there are any other kids ahead of him. So it looks like even if he he sacrifices orchestra he will still not get one of those oh-so-coveted titles. And of course you don’t know whether anyone ranked beneath him will find a way to game the system better and overtake him.
Being Val or Sal matters to no one except the students and the parents. Very few colleges consider rank since most HS do not rank. The “award” of graduation speaker is typically made after the May 1 deadline.
Seems like Brown is promoting the idea that being valedictorian is significant:
https://www.brown.edu/admission/undergraduate/explore/admission-facts#rank
Unfortunately, there are colleges and scholarships (e.g. described in #73) where class rank or valedictorian status is highly important (beyond just being in the top 10%), which encourages rank-grubbing and cutthroat competition in high school (or even middle school).
That is an interesting link, and if you look here https://www.brown.edu/admission/undergraduate/explore/admission-facts#distribution you will also see, that just like Princeton, the acceptance rate for kids on the higher end of the test scores in the range where everyone on cc claims it makes absolutely no difference is in fact substantially higher.
It’s hard to know whether the boost for being valedictorian or having those 800s is really for that accomplishment or whether it’s because such students are more likely to have applications that are outstanding in other ways as well. I’m guessing the latter, and that those students who are val simply because they played the game better aren’t the ones getting that boost.