<p>I could have written “non Catholic Christians” but it is a longer way to say it.</p>
<p>Did anyone read the article about a year ago regarding the Maryfication of some protestant churches?</p>
<p>I suspected it might be the Catholics aren’t Christian thing, because we aren’t “born again”</p>
<p>Most people really don’t care, and in this Country, many Catholics are not anti choice, use birth control (yeah we do), and figure, it will be between them and God, and if others don’t think Catholics are Christian, that is THEIR problem,not Catholics</p>
<p>I find it interesting and sad that religious people are so quick to thnk they choice is the only one</p>
<p>All your kids can do is educate themselves-knowledge is power</p>
<p>THe Jesuits are examples of the value of education, and having an open mind and learning to work together in ecumencially (if yo uget my drift)</p>
<p>I have to admit that some anti-Catholic feelings crept into me when some Catholic bishops threatened to withhold the Eucharist from Kerry and other politicians who were pro-choice. This seemed like a politically motivated decision to me and I cannot imagine any priest or minister denying a person Holy Communion.</p>
<p>Up until a few years ago the President of Bob Jones University characterized Catholicism as a mongrel religion. And I suspect a surprising number of evangelical Protestants today continue to feel the same way though they would never dare to admit it. But then they feel the same way about Presbyterians, Methodists and Episcopalians too.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I find it interesting and sad that religious people are so quick to thnk they choice is the only one
[quote/]
</p>
<p>One of the things that happens in college is that the students have a chance to exchange views. For a student who is truly an adherant to his/her faith, this can be a very positive thing. It helps them to see their faith from the view of someone who doesn’t share it. Sometimes, their faith will be shaken or they will abandon it. Other times, it causes them to firm up their convictions and take their faith on as their own, not just as something they inherited from their parents.</p>
<p>My son was in a human geography class which discussed the origins of man and the origins of religions. Many students shared the idea that there was no one true religion. They thought that many of the world’s religions could be true. I was very proud that my son saw the fallacy in that argument. He said that they can’t all be true. For example, Catholicism, Protestantism, Islam, and Judaism may all have their roots in the Pentateuch (the first 5 books of the Bible), but after that, they started branching off, beginning with Islam and ending with Protestantism. All 4 of these religions teach a different path to Heaven. No 2 of them can both be true. Either 1 is true or none of them are true concerning the way to Heaven. </p>
<p>So, in defense of religious people…a thinking religious person (of any faith) would have to say that their choice is the only one.</p>
<p>Actually, the “Kerry thing” was the Catholic Church attempting to inject itself into American politics. A perfect example of why our founding fathers had the foresight (and hindsight) to favor separation of church and state.</p>
<p>I actually found the idea of the Catholic Church preaching moral high ground to political leaders in the United States quite ironic, given the Church’s own recent dirty laundry.</p>
<p>I think it best if religious organizations stick to preaching and stay out of politics. I can think of few instances where injecting religion into government is a net positive.</p>
<p>Motherdear;</p>
<p>Yes, I read several articles which featured various prot churches that have “discovered” Mary. The funny thing is that most (if not all) the Reformers had a devotion to Mary. Luther certainly did, and Wesley died with his rosary in his hands. The anti-Mary thing only really got going about 100+ years ago.</p>
<p>I always thought it was so odd that Catholics would be criticized for having statues of Mary, but ALL Christians were “allowed” to have a statue of Mary in the month of December… ;)</p>
<p>No, I’ve never heard of these traditions regarding Mary. And our church, an independent mainline Protestant church, does not have any rules about statues, and certainly doesn’t “allow” or disallow statues at Christmas. It’s never even talked about. Rules like that arent’ tipical in mainline Protestantism. There is the thought that Jesus was trying to throw out all the all rules that really didn’t make a difference and mainly sticking to love God and your neighbor. Now that is the sort of discussion kids should have at college. It’s a time to break down all the stereotypes and foregone conclusions about others.</p>
<p>lrdavis: I think you misunderstood my point about “allowing/disallowing”</p>
<p>My point is that for years Catholics have been criticized for having statues of Mary – accusing us of “worshiping” her (we HONOR her as the Mother of God (a title Luther also used). </p>
<p>However, as much as we have been criticized for having statues of Mary in our homes and in our churches throughout the year, mostly all protestants have a statue of Mary in their homes and in their churches during December - in their creches. </p>
<p>Sooooo, it like prots are saying that is “permissible” for a statue of Mary to be in a home or church during the month of December, but it better not be there in any of the other months of the year. Do you get my point, now… :)</p>
<p>Originaloog, many of TheMom’s family in St. Louis [Catholic] were also incensed by some of the “withholding Communion” threats. TheMom’s aunt, who is in her 90’s but sharp as the proverbial tack, said that it was most likely that of the family, she’d be the first to die. When she did and if there were a problem with voting for Kerry, Democrats, or being pro-Choice, she’d come back and let everyone know. Otherwise, everyone should keep voting according to their conscience.</p>
<p>Fwiw, the Catholic church is not nearly so monochromatic as many outsiders assume.</p>
<p>As a Protestant married to a Catholic, I have to comment because there are SO many misunderstandings floating about on both sides.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Statues of Mary: a fundamental difference between Protestants and Catholics is the idea of intercession. Catholics pray to the Virgin Mary and the Saints for intercessions, while the Protestants believe they must pray to God directly, at all times. That’s why Protestants confess directly and privately while Catholics confess their sins to a priest. Protestants do not pray in front of a creche except by coincidence, when, say, one exists at the foot of the altar at church. </p></li>
<li><p>“Catholics are not Christians”: I have never heard this said. Perhaps the fundamentalists (who ironically share the official Catholic stance on abortion) say this? I don’t know. This is the one of the most bizarre religious statements I’ve heard.</p></li>
<li><p>Religious hatred: I have been mistaken for Jewish (because of my maiden name) and Catholic (my married name) even though I’m neither. I will say that anti-Semitism is much stronger than anti-Catholicism in this country. Obviously, if you are Jewish in New York City or Catholic in Boston, you won’t get a good idea of what it is like in, say, the Midwest or the South. </p></li>
<li><p>There are people everywhere who try to make faith a matter of ridicule. The same person who tries to make your child feel inferior about being a Catholic might also do the same to Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, even other Protestant denominations. And some Catholics can be just as guilty of such tactics by calling Protestants, Jews, etc. “heathens.” It all depends on the character - or lack thereof - of the individuals.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>The Catholic/Protestant “Mary” issue is certainly an interesting topic, one that needs to be clarified on both sides. “Permissibility” is just the wrong word when it comes to the use of Mary statues in mainline Protestant issues. At Christmas, her figure in the creche and in church pageants is used to honor her in her role as being chosen as the mother of Jesus. But the rest of the church year, she becomes a minor figure who is mentioned as a part of the story of the gospels. So no one declares permissibility or not, at least not in our church. We just spend more time on other figures of the Bible. It is just not our custom to have permanent statues of any kind in our church.</p>
<p>I have heard the Catholics are not Christians sentiment a few times, as in “I used to be Catholic before I became a Christian”–and this from a woman who sends her kids to a Catholic high school, too :eek: . Have heard it from others too, never from the mainstream protestant types, but from the more fundamentalist types.</p>
<p>TheDad and Originaloog,</p>
<p>The issue of withholding Communion from pro-abortion activists is not that hard to understand. The Catholic Church has very specific dogma regarding a variety of topics, including abortion and marriage. Public figures who oppose those views should not be surprised that their faith is questioned. I’ve never heard of a private Catholic being questioned about his beliefs on these subjects prior to receiving a sacrament, but I can’t understand how someone can take a very public, oppositional point of view regarding Church teachings and expect to be accepted by the Church – which is NOT a democratic organization, by the way. At one time, those people would have been excommunicated – it’s an indication of the changes post Vatican II that people can oppose the Church publicly without any real consequences.</p>
<p>There are a variety of faiths available to Americans. Some of them support abortion, gay marriage, divorce, etc. The Catholic Church is not one of them. No one is forced to choose the Catholic faith, but I don’t understand people who say they are Catholic, yet oppose fundamental beliefs. It just doesn’t make sense to me. Isn’t that how the Reformation came about?</p>
<p>sjmom</p>
<p>ditto to your comments</p>
<p>The Catholic legislators and other leaders need to be held accountable because they are public leaders and greatly influence others. When Catholics see that a vocally pro-abortion leader is receiving Communion, it “gives scandal” to others and suggests that supporting abortion is not a grave sin (which it is in the eyes of the CAtholic Church.) The Church has said that abortion is intrinsically evil, which means it can NEVER be justified under ANY circumstances). </p>
<p>Because abortion is intrisically evil, this issue is different from, say, the death penalty or divorce, two issues that the church is also against. (Which is why Catholic leaders are not told that they MUST be against the death penalty or they MUST make divorce illegal. The church has never said that the death penalty or divorce is intrisically evil; it recognizes that they are sometimes necessary but only as the most last resort. In other words those two issues could be justified in some/rare instances.</p>
<p>I’m married to a man who describes himself as a “recovering Catholic” but who was once a few months away from final vows as a priest. He overheard a subordinate once describe him as “A nice man–too bad he can never be saved because he’s a Catholic.”</p>
<p>I did some catering in a local United Methodist church and worked with the head of food services there who said repeatedly that the Catholic church was the world’s largest Satanic organization.</p>
<p>Yeah, I guess this sort of bigotry is still around. Still, most spiritual people we know don’t take it very seriously. We now sing at a Lutheran church, and every Reformation Sunday, when everybody’s wearing red, my husband likes to tell people that “We had this in the Catholic church,too, but there we called it Herectic Sunday.” The pastor we liked best thought that was hysterical!</p>
<p>Ctymom-- LOL! (Lutheran here). . .</p>
<p>While it can be said that people who hold all kinds of views can claim to be “Catholic” but the truth of the matter is:</p>
<p>Where Peter is, there is the Church. You can’t be “more Catholic” or “less Catholic” then the pope. There really is little wiggle room.</p>
<p>Ctymom, I spent a lot of time in Atlanta early in my career, for training purposes. One of the young women I knew there was Baptist. I think she agreed with your Methodist acquaintances. When she offered to pray for me, I said that I didn’t think it was necessary for her to do so, but that I’d keep her in my prayers anyway! This story is why I questioned the OP regarding the geographic nature of her concern. I’ve only really run into anti-Catholic feeling in the south.</p>
<p>sjmom:</p>
<p>yes, it can be prevalent in the south. However, there are a few areas that have become “infiltrated” 
with Catholics in recent years – the high tech areas, so southerners are starting to learn that the pope is not the anti-christ 
also, Pope John Paul II did wonders to help many overcome prejudices.</p>
<p>I still don’t think a few understand my statues issue. My point is that if it is wrong to have statues, then it is wrong to have them at anytime. If it is okay to have statues in December, then it is okay to have statues anytime.</p>
<p>And, we ask Mary and the saints to pray for our special intentions because we are all part of the Communion of Saints and are all connected to Christ. </p>
<p>Those of you who think that you ONLY pray to God, I ask, why do you ask other to pray for you??? And how is that any different then when a Catholic asks Mary or the saints to pray for them??? It is no different and that is why it isn’t wrong. The saints are more alive then we are and they are certainly closer to God. :)</p>