<p>I would also not agree on the BA/BFA point. My D is in a BFA MT program, but there is no question in my mind that there are some very top notch BA MT programs out there. I think it is just a matter of what a student is looking for in a program; a more performance based program or one that includes a more broad-based education. I don’t think that a BA program is an indication that the program has not committed itself to providing a wonderful MT education.</p>
<p>Thank you for the dialogue on BA vs. BFA. The thoughts are excellent. But, remember that the original question concerned QUALITY. In my response, I posted 10 indicators of QUALITY. I am trying to test musical theatre in a business sense–that is QUALITY as it is typically termed in the business world.</p>
<p>For example, when Apple designed the new iPad2, it set up a specific team to reach a specific goal. A BFA is designed to do that: a specific team/reach a specific goal. Are there different, more costly ways of achieving the same goal? Yes, but from a quality perspective, it’s important to be efficient, focused in design and execution, cost-effective, and to deliver a quality product to the customer (the student and his/her parents). A BFA is designed to deliver a quality fine arts education. A BA has a different goal–a well-rounded traditional degree. When I purchase an iPad2 I don’t want a library of music, a library of books, a computer, a modem, etc. I want that wrapped up in one product. Similar to the BFA.</p>
<p>There is no one way to to receive an excellent education, in MT or any other area. But, from a quality perspective, it is extremely difficult to deliver quality using a BA model.</p>
<p>The BA/BFA debate will continue until higher education is forced to apply business models to the educational products being delivered. Unfortunately, at too many schools, the programs offered were designed in the 1930s, and QUALITY (in the business sense) is not forced on them. Are there excellent students, professors, courses at those schools? Sure! I’m just not convinced you can deliver QUALITY in a BA program vs. a BFA program.</p>
<p>Just a reminder that the OP was specific in asking how to assess programs “not in the top ten”- albeit everyone has a different “top ten” but I think the ? was not about the BEST schools and how to assess them but how to assess the next tier down.</p>
<p>I have to say that I still disagree. Quality is still subjective. I’ve found many BFAs that despite that “BFA” title are still very low quality. Northwestern is a high quality program. I’m not sure what exactly you mean by quality, but if has to with reputation, you’ll find Northwestern’s BA to have a better reputation than many BFAs. I’m positive that this is far too subjective a thing for there to be a clear answer. But many would argue that a BFA produces a lower quality actor - an actor that can sing, dance, act, but hasn’t had any actual college education; a major weakness. I’m not trying to say anything negative about either program, just stating that the two are very different and neither is better. Anyway, it’s silly to generalize a type of degree. A BFA from one is very different from a BFA from another, as is a BA from one and a BA from another.</p>
<p>“When I purchase an iPad2 I don’t want a library of music, a library of books, a computer, a modem, etc. I want that wrapped up in one product. Similar to the BFA.”</p>
<p>I feel this is a flawed analogy. BAs are the programs that allow students the opportunity to explore different things. A BFA MT is strictly MT, little else. A BFA would be the library of music, a BA gives everything.</p>
<p>I think that there are a lot of wonderful questions from all posters…and I want to let the OP know that this discussion could possibly never end! This is the dilemma we all have faced, and everyone has their own opinion on it…ask 40 people, you will get 40 answers. The point I hope “newbies” are seeing is that everyone is looking for something different. QUALITY is such a subjective term. The best advice I saw above was to make YOUR OWN list of what is important to you. </p>
<ol>
<li>NARROW DOWN YOUR LIST FIRST. I see some posters here who’s kids tried out at 20 different school…maybe that worked for them, but I would not even know how to BEGIN to compare those programs in any meaningful way. Some ways to narrow down your list:</li>
</ol>
<p>*** Use the list of the schools chosen by the kids on this forum. These are well-informed well-thought-out choices. All of these programs will be of good quality.**</p>
<pre><code>* Do you know any coach/industry insider/someone else who graduated BFA MT and has seen other programs or worked with people from other programs professionally? During my son’s senior year, he was coached by a guy who had graduated from my son’s college and had some success in NYC. He knew my son and gave us some really good advice on which programs would train his strengths…and even which really highly rated programs he should probably avoid for different reasons. He was also able to give us some tips on some programs that looked good on paper, but in reality had some quality issues. For instance, one school we liked had real problems in their acting department and wasn’t turning out quality actors. We would not have know that without and “insiders” perspective. This can be invaluable advice if you can find a good advisor.
</code></pre>
<ul>
<li><p>Don’t discount fit: We all want the “Harvard” of MT programs…but is that the best for YOUR kid? Harvard is not the only place you can train to be a great lawyer. Can your student see themselves as a part of the overall university and as a part of the MT group at that particular school (are they his “people”?) Sitting in on classes and spending time with some current kids in the program will make this clear. It can be a top-notch program, but if all the kids are pitted against each other and they have created a cut-throat atmosphere…will your student last four years or will they be miserable? Some will say that is real world, but the truth is, no matter what school they attend, many of our kids with broadway dreams will go on to be bankers and store managers…will they feel it was worth sacrificing what should be an enjoyable four years? </p>
<ul>
<li>Make sure your student has thought through and can articulate what they really are looking for in an education. In our case, my son only auditioned where he could have a BA-type degree (nearly half of his classes are university core classes…math, science, history, language) but would still earn a BFA MT. He has a very good friend that wants to be “done” with regular classes and only wants a conservatory-type experience. That knocked out a lot of choices for both of them. In fact, my son only auditioned at 5 different schools because he wanted what he wanted and wasn’t interested in pursuing MT in any other setting. </li>
</ul></li>
</ul>
<ol>
<li>SEE A SHOW. </li>
</ol>
<pre><code> * Quality will be apparent in costumes, sets, lighting, direction.
-
Check the list of shows they have done/plan to do…are they the “style” your kid enjoys and wants to train for? Do they like edge-avante garde things or more traditional styles. Is there a good mix of both?
-
Check out the cast…are non-majors in lead roles? Initially I was of the opinion that non-majors were “stealing” parts that should have gone to MT kids…but I now realize that there are many non-MT majors that are just as talented as our MT kids, but CHOOSE to do another major for one reason or another. For instance, my son almost did directing option…but not because couldn’t make it in the MT option. Likely, there are kids that starred in many high school musicals that chose to do lighting or voice. Just like in the real world…the best actor for the job. I am in the “non-majors help the level of talent” camp…sorry.
-
Make sure you ask about the “dynamics” of their casting…and your chances of getting stage time. Besides the question of whether the director seems to play “favorites”…do they have a graduate program? There are programs where you never see the stage in a big way in undergrad because they also have grad students vying for the roles. Are you a better actor if you are overshadowed by 65 other superstars and you only get to be in the chorus…or is it better to be a big fish in a slightly smaller pond?
</code></pre>
<ol>
<li>SIT IN ON SOME CLASSES. My son said that was invaluable. He got a real feel for the “balance” of classes (voice vs. dance vs. acting) and felt that the ones that were heavier on the acting side were the best “fit” for him. He said he also got a feel for the attitudes and philosophies of the teaching staff. It just worked out that he visited two school only a day apart, saw the shows, sat in the classes. At the end of two days, he had his decision.</li>
</ol>
<p>BOTTOM LINE: I am not sure there is a “shortcut” to the learning curve on all of this…or any checklist of questions that make your choice “obvious”…esp. when you don’t visit in person. A lot of this is a leap of faith, every school has its strenghts and weaknesses, and that can make them hard to compare directly. Good luck, and keep reading these excellent threads!</p>
<p>^ couldn’t agree more!!!</p>
<p>I think one needs to establish some parameters before asking the question:
What kind of experience are you looking for? A traditional college experience on a traditional campus, concentrated MT only experience, a trade school approach? Does it matter to you the size of the institution, the size of the program, the size of the community in which you would be located, the area of the country? After these questions are answered, the assessing the quality of various MT programs becomes more narrowly focused and therefore, perhaps, a less daunting task.
Once you decide on a type of program – university, BFA, conservatory or non-degreed trade school – you will have narrowed down your list by quite a bit. If location and size of program are salient issues to you, you can, again, pare down your list. Sadly, affordability is also typically a large player here as well – although, do not automatically eliminate big ticket schools as there are often good sums of scholarship monies available to ease the pain a bit.
Now that you have an idea of what you are looking for, here are some things I think are helpful in evaluating an MT program.
This is a triple threat business. Anyone that is remotely connected to the current market (for the past decade actually) will tell you they need to cast multi-talented folks. This means you need to have a program that has an equal value across the board in acting, singing and dancing. There are a surprising number of schools that have good, old reputations that have not yet acculturated to the new reality of the industry. One way to assess a programs commitment to triple pronged training is to simply look at its required elements and optional offerings and see if there are adequate courses offered in all areas. Voice should have at least one hour per week of private instruction. Dance should offer courses with multiple levels in specific dance for MT, jazz tap, ballet (a touch of modern is fine - but typically not as salient as the others), other courses might include ballroom, partnering, period, etc. At least one dance course per semester is minimal. Acting should offer some basics, at least two contrasting styles of method and then other courses in elocution, mime, comedia, classic Shakespeare and so on. Many good MT programs require virtually the same acting tract as what they require of their BFA Actors. By the way, there should also be course that prepare students for the business end of show business. I could go on and on listing various permutations of course work – the point is, look at the catalogue and make sure there is a balance in requirements and/or electives. By the way, every program would love for you to be a triple threat – but that is unreasonable – most quality programs are pleased if you are strong in two and seem remotely teachable in the third.
Mentorship is huge. Check out the current, full time faculty that will be working with the students over the course of their college career. A committed faculty person who inspires a student to be better than they ever thought they might can be the difference in the lifetime success of a student. This can only come from full time, all the time involvement. So, check out the number permanently appointed full time faculty assigned to MT. This is an indication of the school’s commitment to the program. Any program that subsists on a diet of part time and guest faculty probably raises a red flag. Please do not misunderstand, programs should bring in occasional guest directors, choreographers, designers, to augment an already strong full time faculty to bring in new ideas and perspective – but not to substitute for elements lacking in its own base faculty. Also, concerning faculty – check who is current on faculty (not who was there and has since retired or moved on), check that the faculty have good resumes – for example - a director or choreographer – do they have professional MT SDC credits? Check that the faculty claimed actually teach/direct at the school. One program I know claims a quite famous person on their faculty and if you check their resume of theatre and movie appearances it is quite clear that “faculty” has never taught an entire semester at the school – ever.
Finances, not your own, the school’s. It is sad to say this but in these days of financial meltdown, emphasis on hard sciences, and political attacks on educational funding in general you need to check how well funded the program you wish to attend is now and might be in the near future. Sad to say, but budget cuts have consequences. The overall economy affects all schools and political budget cuts especially hurt state schools. New York, California, Florida, Michigan, practically every state school is facing huge cuts in funding. This can hurt the programs you might be looking into – check comparative numbers of adjunct faculty from past years and now, check if performance opportunities have been at all limited due to budgets, BIG check to see if full time faculty who have retired or moved on have been replaced by new full time hires.
Connections are good. Does the school have a steady stream of working alumni? By the way, how have the alumni in just the last couple of years fared? Are there business professionals like agents, casting directors, composers, producers, talent agencies aware of and care to engage students from the program? Many schools have a number of industry professional in for workshops and/or auditions. This is the most effective way for contacts to be made and maintained. I have had many of these types of folks tell me that they prefer school visits to senior showcases. This is not to say senior showcases from a top tier school is useless – it is simply to say the school visit is more effective in securing work.
Performance opportunities are important. Someone earlier posted a number of productions that high quality programs would produce. I think the intention was good, but I would say this – check the number of performances opportunities as compared with the number of students in the program. Also, are undergraduates competing with graduate students for lead roles? How fully realized are the productions? Are freshmen allowed to be on stage? It is not the number of productions but the size of casts, the number of good roles, and the level of support. Also, are there professional opportunities and/or internships available in the immediate area of the school?
Some things would be good to know – but schools are not going to provide you with the information, for example, dropout rate – the rate of students dropping out of a program could be an indication that they did not feel they were getting what they needed from a program. Some things are good to know but not a deal breaker, example, do the students generally feel enthusiastic about their program – probably YES – but there is an element of “hooray for my school” and/or you get to a new place, make six friends, and everything is great! Conversely, if you look, I am sure you can find individual students who will deride their schools – they are typically students who feel their talent has not been adequately acknowledged and have not been cast in the roles they thought they should have been cast.
I have found that most quality programs are very demanding of a student’s time and do cut into the time that might be spent on other social and educational activities. Someone suggested that programs that give or make you have time for outside activities are better. I agree that a person should be well rounded and have diverse pursuits – but many excellent MT programs are very demanding on one’s time.
Along those lines, someone else suggested inquiring as to the “dynamics of casting” – I think this is a mistake. I always thought I would understand casting better when I got to the other side of the table – not so! The dynamics of casting are an ever changing quicksand that shifts beneath one’s feet – any attempt to apply logic will typically only end in dismay. Yes, there sometimes “favorites”, but more often there is only the appearance of favorites. Checking the composition of the cast as to MT majors is a good idea – except that I would argue the presence of non-performing arts majors in a college production indicates that there were not enough talented MT majors to populate the roles. If talented non-majors are getting into shows – it kind of makes you wonder what the BFA training is accomplishing.
However, yes, do see a production at the schools you are seriously considering. I say this with a grain of salt; you need to be aware of the level of that production in the school’s hierarchy of productions. Is it a fully mounted , well funded production with their “A” people; or it might be a low or no budgeted production intended to give “B” performers a chance to get on stage and improve their craft. Also, do not be swayed by the show itself. Student’s might be overly swayed by a production that seems exciting like “RENT” or put off by a less exciting “SHE LOVES ME”….look at the quality of the performances, direction, choreography.
Do you like the area, the campus, the “feel” of the department? Do talk to faculty and students – you have to live with these people for four years.
I thought I could do this – but this is an epic task with indefinite permutations.<br>
I will leave it here. So these are just some and inadequately explained ideas….wish you well on your journey….</p>
<p>mtdog, this is one of the best, most helpful posts I have ever read on CC. Thank you so much - I will be sharing with this all of my students, forever! :)</p>
<p>Mtdog71, as always, such wise words. Thanks for taking the time to post.</p>
<p>I will print tee shirts: “The dynamics of casting are an ever changing quicksand that shifts beneath one’s feet – any attempt to apply logic will typically only end in dismay.” -MTDog71</p>
<p>mtdog71 WOW! I’ve been lurking for over a year trying to get a handle on this daunting task and here you come with the best post I have read so far. Thanks!</p>
<p>mtdog71 - your post has been immensely helpful – the time you took to further define your points with specific examples is greatly appreciated! All of the posts have been so well thought out and useful!</p>
<p>I want to buy a tee shirt! :D</p>
<p>What a fabulous and thoughtful reflection on what sorts of things to look for.</p>
<p>But -
suppose -</p>
<p>it turns out after all the auditions and offers, that, the schools you are left with that will both accept you and that you can afford, don’t have the answers, necessarily, that you like, to all those questions?</p>
<p>What then? I mean, even if you did happen to know all those questions to ask at the beginning of your journey (thanks to CC I think most of us did know at least some of them though this is surely one of the most comprehensive and deeply thoughtful lists anywhere) when you were making out your “list”, suppose that there simply isn’t a big enough pool of schools available to you, that every single school on your list had the answers you liked to all those questions? Supposing the schools that did, either didn’t take you, or ended up being financially out of reach? (a real heartbreaker)</p>
<p>What do you do then?</p>
<p>The questions ultimately comes down to picking the best school that 1) meets your specific needs and desires, 2) that accepts you and 3) that you can afford. When our D was in the process, we tried to be really clear that all 3 criteria had to be met. If NONE of those criteria had been met, we gave D some choices - take a gap year, go to a CC and plan to transfer, or pick a non-audition BA program and make the best of it. IMO, hard work and lots of luck have as much to do with succeeding in “the business” as what school you went to.</p>
<p>Girls (even triple threats) probably need to cast a wider net and may not be able to afford being very, very selective at the beginning of the process. At the end, a student can go through all of these excellent questions as she finely examine her acceptance list, but to have a very narrow list early on for a female in particular could be a risky strategy if she hopes to get scholarship offers and acceptances from the same school.</p>
<p>We’ve had 15 schools on the list all along (and that 15 changed around within a pool of 20 or so) so I don’t see how we really could have managed to cast any bigger of a net; Excell is unlimited in the number of schools you can enter, but our ability to process them is not!</p>
<p>I agree though that for girls, if you only have a few, that’s a risk.</p>
<p>What sucks about Texas, and I really, really hate this more all the time, is that so few public schools here offer a desireable MT program. It would take maybe all of 15 minutes to actually find out and do the math, (because so few choices in a state this big) but I estimate the number of TOTAL freshman MT slots in the state (and this is including even places like UTEP in El Paso) to be under 50. So that’s, what, a couple dozen for the girls. If you don’t get into one of those, you are looking at private $chool$ and out of $tate $chools. And we are a long, long, long way away from the concentrated cluster of midwest and northern and eastern schools, long enough that even if the cost of travel wasn’t prohibitive, then the time away from school (while trying not to let grades suffer so as not to risk crucial merit aid) becomes an issue.</p>
<p>It is extremely frustrating.</p>
<p>Well, I know CT is not anywhere near as large as TX, but we have NO public options, and only one private option…so while we are in the northeast with many options within driving distance or short plane/train rides, they ALL involved either private school $$$ or out of state $$$.</p>
<p>Ditto here in Vermont. Texas is a much bigger state, of course, but they do have public universities that offer MT.</p>
<p>That said, for anyone pursuing a MT degree in college, they need to understand that there are not that many options (compared to pursuing college for many other majors) and they pretty much need to go where the programs are located and it would be VERY limiting to limit the search to their own state or states bordering their state. This is very different than a college search for most other majors where there are thousands of colleges to choose from and one may narrow the search by region, state, or distance from home, and still have plenty of schools from which to choose to apply.</p>
<p>As far as the cost and time to travel to auditions far from home…pretty much everyone applying has to do that. I understand it is expensive. One way to save costs is to attend Unifieds. In the scheme of the total cost of attending college, the cost of auditioning is a small fraction. As far as time, all these kids who are traveling to auditions have to manage to keep up with school during the year. My kid traveled to 8 auditions out of state (no Unifieds) and maintained high grades. It can be done. It isn’t easy, sure. </p>
<p>As far as the cost of travel if you attend a college far from home, there is an expense but they don’t have much time to come home. My MT kid went to college six hours from home but only came home twice a year total and not in summers. We saw her other times when we went to see shows and so forth. I realize there is an expense involved.</p>
<p>Hugs to you SDF. Yes, 15 was plenty. 5 would have been very risky.</p>