Anyone wants to move from Massachusetts to Nebraska?

[dstark]

<p>That is how I see Texas. ;)</p>

[BCEagle91]

<br>

<p>I am sure there are anecdotes and “some people” change their work
habits based on taxes, but overall…the economy does not do worse
when taxes are higher. That is the history. Some people work less,
but others pick up the slack.</p>

<br>

<p>In MA, you have a fair amount of regular out-migration over cost of living and some of that is taxes. MA would be a net population loser without college students coming in from other states.</p>

<p>I would have to see evidence for your assertion. Sorry, but I don’t accept it on face value and finding counterexamples would be easy.</p>

<br>

<p>Those homes would cost a little bit more where I live. Homes on two
acres are kind of rare, but even if that more expensive home was on
a 1/4 acre, that home would cost well over $1 million here.</p>

<br>

<p>This is why I’m in a building of software engineers in NH.</p>

<br>

<p>The prop tax on 1 million would be about 12500, buy we have a cap
gains tax that can run 9 to 13 percent.</p>

<br>

<p>Which is why NH is a nice place to live if you have a lot of cap gains income.</p>

<br>

<p>And yet, Silicon Valley, despite these high cap gains rates, and
they are extremely high, I think too high, is located in
California. Now the cap rates have just gone up so we can all see if
there is an effect in the future.</p>

<br>

<p>Many of those Silicon Valley companies have operations in many other states. I work for a Silicon Valley giant and we get salaries similar to those in Silicon Valley. But our housing expenses are a lot lower.</p>

<p>Why did Apple build their new iCloud facility in North Carolina? Why does Google have a data center in North Carolina? Austin, TX is home to a lot of high-tech facilities too, including Samsung for making Apples chips.</p>

<p>Why is there so much television production in Toronto when Hollywood is supposed to be the film and TV capital? There seem to be so many US-based shows that are filmed up there.</p>

<br>

<p>Calif is close to a balanced budget. Unthinkable a couple of years ago.</p>

<br>

<p>I guess that things have been pretty bad there if that’s considered a
positive.</p>

<br>

<p>We in texas drive on dirt roads with our pickup trucks and educate our
kids in our backyards.</p>

<br>

<p>Dell, Nvidia, 3M, Apple, Hewlett-Packard, Google, AMD, Applied Materials, Cirrus Logic, Cisco Systems, Flextronics, EBay, PayPal, Bioware, Blizzard Entertainment, Hoover’s, Intel, National Instruments, Samsung, Buffalo Technology, Silicon Laboratories, Xerox, oracle, Hostgator, HomeAway, United Devices, Facebook.</p>

<p>Companies with operations in Austin.</p>

[zoosermom]

<p>I think it is unquestionable that people or businesses that can leave high tax areas do so. The exodus out of California is not fictitious. On a smaller scale, many retires move to places like Florida for low taxes. I always think it is noteworthy that a huge percentage of NYC municipal retires head out as soon as they retire. Which can be I. Their 40s with large pensions and lifetime medical. They take out their six figure incomes for 20years and leave, taking their taxes when they can. When you talk about taxes you have to look at the big picture. Those of you who don’t think there is a tipping point are delusional.mbut you are the same gullible group who trusts that money to be spent wisely. It’s not an accident that Detroit, Chicago, Cleveland, Newark and California are failing or have failed.</p>

[Lergnom]

<p>BC, I can refer you to a study published by the Boston Fed that looks at social spending across New England. The finding is that most of the differences are driven by demographics, not by public policy. Thus, for example, something like almost 80% of the difference between MA and NH spending levels - population adjusted, of course - are because NH demographically differs. </p>

<p>Another point: comparing CA to NH is ridiculous. CA is one of the 10 largest economies in the entire world. The entire population of NH is about the same as the population of San Jose and a few of its closest suburbs. CA has 37 million people. It’s the size of a country in people, physical space and economically. It is thus reasonable to expect it would have some of the same problems as a country - with the exception that it can’t borrow like a sovereign nation and that it actually sends more taxes out of state than it receives.</p>

<p>Here are a few actual facts about California:

• it is 50% larger than Texas in population.
• it has a GDP of about $2T, which is about 1/3 larger than Texas (which has a much larger oil & gas sector).
• it is 12th in income per head (Texas is 24th). </p>

<p>As to people leaving: CA added 3.4 million people last decade. More people left CA for other states - which is the source of the exodus idea - but huge numbers came to CA from overseas and of course there are births. Texas added 4.3M people. That’s a difference but then land and housing cost less in Texas. But still CA grew by almost 3 New Hampshires, by about the population of Connecticut - meaning it added more people than live in 20 states. </p>

<p>CA drew twice as many people from overseas as Texas. Why point that out? Because if we assume both states drew people from Latin America, that means CA drew many, many more from other parts of the world, particularly from Asia and South Asia. If you trace through the data, CA is drawing higher educated, higher income people from around the world. This is born out in the domestic stats as well: people leave CA for Texas and come to CA from Texas and the flow is lower income to Texas, higher income to CA. </p>

<p>My point is to lay out facts not to make any specific political point. Each area is different and it’s generally wrong to generalize to fit an ideology.</p>

[BCEagle91]

<p>Businesses certainly. There used to be a decent amount of ICE automobile production in CA. A lot of the newer production (last 20 years) seems to be focused on the Southeast and somewhat north.</p>

<p>Why have many of the Silicon Valley companies outsourced large number of jobs to India? Why don’t they just hire more people in Silicon Valley?</p>

[BCEagle91]

<br>

<p>I can refer you to a study published by the Boston Fed that looks at
social spending across New England. The finding is that most of the
differences are driven by demographics, not by public policy. Thus,
for example, something like almost 80% of the difference between MA
and NH spending levels - population adjusted, of course - are
because NH demographically differs.</p>

<br>

<p>Public policy, though, also drives demographics. So I doubt the value of such a study.</p>

<br>

<p>comparing CA to NH is ridiculous. CA is one of the 10 largest
economies in the entire world. The entire population of NH is about
the same as the population of San Jose and a few of its closest
suburbs. CA has 37 million people. It’s the size of a country in
people, physical space and economically. It is thus reasonable to
expect it would have some of the same problems as a country - with
the exception that it can’t borrow like a sovereign nation and that
it actually sends more taxes out of state than it receives.</p>

<br>

<p>You may recall that I didn’t bring up the comparison.</p>

<p>If you want to compare it to another country, though, we could talk about Singapore.</p>

[zoosermom]

<p>The education system in Texas does a good job. Nothing to be sneered at</p>

[dstark]

<p>BCEagle91…</p>

<p>Zoosermom, of course some people leave for taxes. Nobody said otherwise. You are making up a strawman argument and then trashing it. A friend just left California because of taxes. But other people are flocking here, high taxes or not.</p>

<p>This is Silicon Valley in a high tax state.</p>

<p>[Silicon</a> Valley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Valley]Silicon”>Silicon Valley - Wikipedia)</p>

<p>And SF is a hotbed of startups. Everywhere you look there is a start up. I am barely exaggerating. Startups are everywhere. SF is an incredibly expensive place to live in a state with high taxes. There must be a
reason entrepreneurs are setting up shop in SF despite high taxes and a high cost of living. If these startups hit it big there are going to be cap<br>
gains taxes on that wealth…well the wealth that isn’t shielded. :)</p>

<p>Taxes play a part, but a much smaller part in the economy than is talked about. There are other factors that are bigger.</p>

<p>I didn’t make up this stuff about taxes and gdp. All this stuff was public right before the election. I know people were trying to squash some of the findings about taxes and gdp
but I thought that information became public. This stuff can be googled if it was missed.</p>

[SteveMA]

<p>^^Texas ranks 47th nationally for combined average ACT/SAT scores…</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.deseretnews.com/top/777/0/Which-state-has-the-highest-average-ACT-and-SAT-scores.html[/url]”>http://www.deseretnews.com/top/777/0/Which-state-has-the-highest-average-ACT-and-SAT-scores.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

[texaspg]

<p>Well, we do have huge swaths of first gen non english speakers who are accepted by the fine ivy league schools despite those low scores!</p>

[BCEagle91]

<br>

<p>Zoosermom, of course some people leave for taxes. Nobody said
otherwise. You are making up a strawman argument and then trashing
it. A friend just left California because of taxes. But other people
are flocking here, high taxes or not.</p>

<br>

<p>I’ve generally said that people leave for overall costs. MA is a high-tax and high-COL state. NH is a fairly high-COL state, especially compared to the Southeast.</p>

<p>People are leaving MA and others are flocking too it. Typically families are leaving and college students are flocking. The net is relatively little change in the population</p>

<p>California is high tax, high COL but there are jobs that may make it worth it. Of course the entire population doesn’t have access to those jobs.</p>

<br>

<p>And SF is a hotbed of startups. Everywhere you look there is a start
up. I am barely exaggerating. Startups are everywhere. SF is an
incredibly expensive place to live in a state with high taxes. There
must be a reason. If these startups hit it big there are going to be
cap gains taxes on that wealth…well the wealth that isn’t shielded.</p>

<br>

<p>You may have noticed that California has some areas that are less desirable than Silicon Valley too.</p>

<br>

<p>Taxes play a part, but a much smaller part in the economy than is
talked about. There are other factors that are bigger.</p>

<br>

<p>This depends on where you sit. If taxes aren’t a tipping point for you, then party on.</p>

<br>

<p>I didn’t make up this stuff about taxes and gdp. All this stuff was
public right before the election. I know people were trying to
squash some of the findings about taxes and gdp but I thought that
information became public. This stuff can be googled if it was
missed.</p>

<br>

<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/1992/02/07/business/falling-tax-would-lift-all-yachts.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/1992/02/07/business/falling-tax-would-lift-all-yachts.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<br>

<p>Texas ranks 47th nationally for combined average ACT/SAT scores</p>

<br>

<p>How about adding an adjustment for demographics?</p>

[poetgrl]

<p>dstark, what IS the problem, then, in california, in your opinion? </p>

<p>I know why I think Illinois is on the verge of bankruptcy, but our states are more or less in a similar economic situation, with cities in your state actually declaring bankruptcy. Are the taxes lower in California or something?</p>

<p>I really don’t know.</p>

[zoosermom]

<p>Dstark, perhaps you should read the entire thread or speak only for yourself before accusing others of making straw man arguments. Just because you didn’t say something doesn’t mean it wasn’t said.</p>

[zoosermom]

<p>I’ve posted the Texas numbers and demographic info repeatedly, but like the false argument of armed guard not saving lives at columbine, it is ignored by those who find it inconvenient.</p>

[dstark]

<p>Taxes are higher in California, and taxes were just raised for 2013. We will see the impact of higher taxes in the future, but right now, California’s budget deficit has closed. The state’s bonds ratings may be upgraded. Interest rates On Cal bonds have collapsed.</p>

<p>With my investment in a trading company in Chicago, I paid Illinois state income taxes of 3 percent until it was raised to 5 percent. Those rates are low compared to California. I realize income taxes are just one tax so maybe Illinois collects higher taxes elsewhere?</p>

<p>California still has a pension problem. I guess Illinois does too.</p>

<p>I don’t know the details in how these numbers were derived…</p>

<p>[New</a> York Has Highest State and Local Tax Burden in U.S. - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/10/23/new-york-has-highest-state-and-local-tax-burden-in-us]New”>http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/10/23/new-york-has-highest-state-and-local-tax-burden-in-us)</p>

[barrons]

<p>Looks like some very low spending states do very well. Impact of demos is one obvious reason.</p>

[dstark]

<p>[Tax</a> Cuts Don’t Lead to Economic Growth, a New 65-Year Study Finds - Derek Thompson - The Atlantic](<a href=“Tax Cuts Don't Lead to Economic Growth, a New 65-Year Study Finds - The Atlantic”>Tax Cuts Don't Lead to Economic Growth, a New 65-Year Study Finds - The Atlantic)</p>

[Magnetron]

<p>A friend of mine actually did this, moved from Boston to Omaha. He has since moved to Manhattan. Taxes seem to be something people always complain about but are way down the list of considerations when deciding where to live. </p>

<p>My sister is a government accountant who moved from upstate NY out to CA. What she found when she got there was a government bloated way out of proportion, flush with money but headed for disaster. They had way too many employees, overly generous benefits and pensions, huge, unexplained expense accounts, etc. It was not unusual for an official to hire personal friends on a “consultant” basis and pay them $10K+ per week.</p>

<p>Personally, I have no interest in leaving my adopted corner of the country. 12 miles from downtown Seattle, .5 acre lot, $3500/yr in property tax and no income tax.</p>

[katliamom]

<p>“overwhelmingly white? …and conservative to boot?..oh the horror”</p>

<p>Yes… to those of us who live in highly diverse, at least open-minded (if not liberal) communities, yes, that’s a bit of a horror. Do you have a problem with that?</p>

[Hanna]

<p>“It’s not an accident that Detroit, Chicago, Cleveland, Newark and California are failing or have failed.”</p>

<p>You really think that Chicago is in the same boat with Detroit and Newark? It’s not. We’re fine, and it looks like we’re going to be fine in the long run. The reason we’re going to be fine is that we have a healthy and growing middle-class population to support the tax base. Young professionals want to live here, and they move here from elsewhere. Kids that grew up in the suburbs are now raising their families in the city, the same pattern that’s happening in NYC. There is no reason to think that that is going to change, and as long as it continues, we’re good. The problems we’re dealing with are serious, but nothing that we and lots of other cities haven’t survived before.</p>