<p>AP is actually intended to allow students to show that they have completed university level work in high school. Flawed as many of the AP tests are, the universities presumably accept them because it is more convenient than administering their own placement tests in English, math, etc. to new freshmen. Public universities may also be generous with generic credits in order to encourage in-state students to graduate as quickly as possible.</p>
<p>Of course, if AP / pre-AP / honors courses in high school are bad, you probably won’t like what goes on in regular non-honors courses at non-elite high schools.</p>
<p>I think Caperi understood my point the best. I am not critical of AP classes in and of themselves, but rather of the idea of tying the classes to a standardized test (particularly where the standardized test in question is not a standard part of college applications). Granted, AP teachers will vary in the amount of time they spend on test prep type activities, but I question why any high school teacher should spend time preparing its best and brightest students for these 3rd party tests. If I were a teacher with a classroom full of academic superstars I wouldn’t want to waste a minute of our time together. It seems that Caperi’s school, and the admissions officers they consulted, shared this perspective. (Interlochen, a renown boarding school in Michigan, has no AP classes as well. There may be others.)</p>
<p>Also, as I said in my initial post, I understand the value of placement and advancement. But you don’t need AP tests to accomplish either result. For example, my high school didn’t offer Spanish AP. So when I started as a freshman at Stanford the university just had me take a short language test. I did about as well as I expected, got credit toward my foreign language requirement and was allowed to skip lower level classes. I didn’t need to spend a year preparing for an AP Spanish test (wasting class time, buying AP Study guides, hiring private tutors, dropping extra-curriculars, etc.). I just focused on doing well in the classes that I was enrolled in and when the time came to start college I was placed where I needed to be. I just don’t see the need to go through all this worry and expense to accomplish the same result.</p>
<p>yankeefreak127 raises a very good point about the pure volume of tests students are taking these days. The expansion of the AP curriculum, both in terms of classes offered and classes taken is compounding this problem because each AP class comes with its own standardized test. A student with 10 AP classes will have 10 additional standardized tests to waddle through! I just can’t imagine how that could be the highest and best use of such an advanced student’s time.</p>
<p>It is very possible that my anathema to the way the AP program encourages our country’s brightest students to load up on standardized tests is influenced by the way my alma mater measured success. As the Stanford admissions website says: “What a course is named or whether it concludes with a standardized test is considerably less important to us than the energy a student contributes to the learning process and the curiosity with which he or she pursues questions and ideas. Sometimes this challenging high school course load will include advanced placement classes; other high schools choose to offer equally demanding courses that neither carry the AP designation nor lead to an AP exam. We want to be clear that this is not a case of ‘whoever has the most APs wins.’ Instead, we look for thoughtful, eager and highly engaged students who will make a difference at Stanford and the world beyond”</p>
<p>Languages are different, you don’t need AP to prove your proficiency. Colleges may allow you to test out of classes but that’s really not helpful if you took the class three years ago. I understand where you’re coming from though, to me it doesn’t make any sense to self study classes you won’t need. Human Geography has to be the most useless exam ever (interesting though) but yet so many people self study it, why? </p>
<p>It’s not just AP that works this way, so does IB and state assesments and finals.</p>
<p>At a few elite high schools, a course specifically geared toward the AP test may well be a downgrade from the “normal” courses that they would teach at that level. Of course, students in the “better than AP” courses at the elite high schools could still take and probably ace the AP tests anyway without test-specific preparation.</p>
<p>However, for a more typical high school, AP courses (and their honors / pre-AP prerequisites) would likely be a major upgrade compared to the “normal” courses (and the existence of AP may be the only reason that typical high schools even offer courses at that level – e.g. calculus). Elite high schools and their students comprise only a tiny percentage of the total number of high schools and their students (and many top students go to non-elite high schools), so policy decisions with respect to AP need to consider the needs of students at typical high schools.</p>
<p>Of course, the AP course syllabi could use significant improvement over what they are now, and the “worthless” ones should be dropped.</p>
<p>I agree with ucbalumnus’s take on this. The thing that surprises me though is that more of those elite high schools haven’t done away with AP.</p>
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<p>Not quite, on a technicality: we simply don’t cover all of the material on the AP exam. Or rather, we cover somewhat different material - depth rather than breadth coupled with every teacher’s unique style of teaching and types of assignments given. The few students that insist on taking AP exams often have to study extra material months in advance. Interestingly, we also have to put in a decent amount of extra work to take certain SAT II’s (that is, if we want top scores; the material covered alone would probably still be enough for 650-700 or so).</p>
<p>Both my kids took and passed 8 ap"s out of a top orange county, ca. high school. They both statred with 30 credits from UCSD and U of Minnesota. Big advantage for class signup and my check book. My daughter graduated in 3 years from UCSD with 2 minors. You have to work within the system. Think about it.</p>
<p>I agree with part of what you’re saying, but I wouldn’t call AP classes wasteful test prep programs. </p>
<p>I’ve taken 8 AP classes, passed 6 of them, but the only class where I learned without putting in a tremendous amount of hours self-studying was U.S History. And I can honestly say that even 2 years after I took the AP U.S History exam, I still know so much about this country’s history, it’s amazing. I think that if you have the right teacher, an AP class is a lot more than just taking a class and trying to pass the “end of course” exam. The amount of knowledge you can gain from an AP class that is properly taught is incredible.</p>
<p>The other APs that I’ve self studied- I’ve remembered some of the info, but nothing compared to the amount of information I’ve retained about US History. Sometimes that part of the AP class goes overlooked- the fact that if the class is taught properly, the knowledge that can be gained is invaluable. If someone were to take 6-8 AP classes that were well taught and efficiently run, not only would they have a decent chance at gaining some college credit, but they’d gain so much more knowledge about these subjects.</p>
<p>I’m a student of a low income household that will most likely end up going to a big public U. I am extremely lucky to have a school that offers CC credits that transfer, and a limited number of AP classes. I’ve spent the last 2-3 days plugging numbers, and by taking 5 AP exams (so we’ll say $500 in exams, which will be hard to pay for) and a few CC classes, I will enter my local university with 30 credits. That will save me nearly $14,000. Without AP classes I’d have to pay for 4 years at the University, and be in a considerable amount of debt.
I am also a student that accelerated a grade and many years in various subjects (I’ll have like 6-7 years of science when I graduate, 5 years of math, etc). I am what would be called a student that needs to be challenged. In my school, the AP courses are 10x harder than going to the CC or the university itself, and they save loads of money in the long run. While I completely agree that it seems like some courses simply teach to the test, that test means a lot to some of us.</p>
<p>I’m not sure where everyone is getting this idea that AP scores don’t really matter in the admissions process. Clearly no one has read “A Is for Admission” which devotes an entire chapter to the importance of AP scores ON YOUR APPLICATION. Yes, colleges look at them. And yes, they can make the difference between being accepted and not. We’re not talking about Average State U., we’re talking about top colleges.</p>
<p>I went to an underperforming rural school. Outside of 5 APs and a handful of others classes, my school was essential crap, academically speaking (even my AP English teacher admitted this). Literally NO ONE goes to Ivy League or top colleges from my school. Only about half of the class ends up going to college (that is, the part of the class that actually graduates) and I would say the average college bound kid goes to a technical school or a branch campus of a large state u. </p>
<p>When I decided I wanted to go to Penn’s Wharton School, I was daunted. At my school, there seemed to be a cap as to how well the smartest kids were able to do on standardized tests. Generally, it was about a 30 or 31 on the ACT. Even the best students didn’t really have the ability (one cultivated by years of quality education) to score in the 33+ range. I was no exception. I squeezed by with a 2100 on the SAT (ok, 2090 - generously super scored) - so I was definitely not up to par with Penn standards.</p>
<p>The ONLY thing that I can see which could have proved my academic ability and thus caused me to be accepted were my AP scores. I got two 5s my junior year - both in AP classes which hadn’t seen a 5 in their 10 year history at my school. My teachers wrote outstanding recommendations about my performance, thus showing that I can compete at a high level. I was accepted to Wharton and I realize now that this was most likely what made the difference.</p>
<p>While it may be easy to say that AP exams are arbitrary and pointless, for some students it is the only way for them to prove themselves. AP exam scores are a product of a students performance and effort in the class. Unlike SAT and ACT scores which correlate heavily with socioeconomic status and quality of education, AP scores reflect only what a student puts into the class. For students who have fewer academic opportunities, AP courses may be the only way to stand out in the ultra competitive admissions process.</p>
<p>^
Very good points. AP is a standardized test, and with standardized tests, come the opportunity for students to assert their competitiveness on a national scale, whether it be from Exeter or a school that hasn’t sent a kid to an Ivy in 20 years. Brownie points for most colleges accepting AP credit and saving students $, especially in this debt and loan ridden college system.</p>
<p>The only thing that’s standardized about the AP Test is the test itself. Students taking these classes have had different teacher/class quality and school funding. I’m not saying they don’t matter at all- but relatively speaking, they aren’t of vital importance. SAT, GPA, EC’s, and even SAT II’s are more important. I went to this open event once where some admissions officers from top schools, including Penn, specifically stated that an SAT II score is more indicative of proficiency in a specific subject than an AP score.</p>
<p>I’m also going to have to disagree with the SAT-ACT comment. Sure, some of it requires an education… But no top-notch private school education is going to make a huge difference in SAT score. You either are good with tests, or you aren’t. No matter how bad the teacher/school is, if a student is as smart as he/she thinks he is, his/her SAT/ACT score should correlate with that. You have to remember, not everyone on CC comes from a rich private school and has parents that pay for $1000 sat prep classes. Some of us, whether you call it innate ability or test-taking ability, do well on the SAT regardless of our socioeconomic status. I’m not going to get into a “who has the poorer school” argument, but I also go to an underfunded public school with huge grade inflation-- one in which some members of the top 10(gpa) have sub-1900 scores. Yet, there are at least 3-4 people in the top 10 that have high SAT scores; (2360/2360/2270/2210). And there’s one that isn’t in the top 10 with a 2320. (We had one ivy admittance, the valedictorian(2340) to Yale. Also has one accepted to MIT)</p>
<p>And btw, mega congrats on wharton, philly. That’s amazing.</p>