Are At-Risk Students Bunnies to be Drowned?

Parents Forum
241

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-mount-st-marys-20160215-story.html

Aimee Mann wrote a song about this…

[-X [-X [-X [-X

*It’s not what you thought
When you first began it.
You got, what you want
You can hardly stand it though
By now you know

It’s not going to stop
It’s not going to stop
It’s not going to stop
Till you wise up

You’re sure, there’s a cure
And you have finally found it.
You think, one drink
Will shrink you 'till you’re underground
And living down

But it’s not going to stop
It’s not going to stop
It’s not going to stop
Till you wise up

Prepare a list for what you need
before you sign away the deed

Cause it’s not going to stop
It’s not going to stop
It’s not going to stop
Till you wise up.

No it’s not going to stop
Till you wise up
No it’s not going to stop
So just give up*

[-X [-X [-X [-X

242

@ucbalumnus wrote

It should be their new mascot.

@Much2learn wrote

I can answer from the perspective of someone who has attended some really rigorous schools, and (at last count) at least 3 community colleges. There is some difference in raw processing ability of the kids, but the biggest difference I see is self-discipline and self-motivation, and putting off instant gratification in order to achieve a long term goal.

Some kids just can’t see beyond the day and their impulses.

The kids who struggle in the community colleges are having trouble either because of the stuff I mentioned above, or really onerous family situations (they’re single moms or they’re kids supporting younger siblings because the parents are non-functional).

I don’t think you can create self-discipline and self-motivation in kids. You can set expectations and consequences when they’re young, but at some point, they’re leading themselves to the water trough. I don’t know if you can force them to take “how to drink from the water trough” classes and have it really become an internalized drive.

I don’t even think that’s the school’s job. This whole retention rate thing is causing all sorts of unhealthy behaviors and corrupt actions on the part of colleges. It’s a really dangerous metric, in my opinion. It speaks to the parentization of the colleges-you used to just go there to learn, the colleges would teach, success was on you.

243

Has anyone told Notre Dame that “Catholic doesn’t sell”?

244

Every late summer we read posts from parents who have been dragging their rising senior around on college visits and the question for the crowd is “how can I get my kid interested in going to college”. So the crowd asks questions- stats, interests, EC’s, etc. and gradually a picture emerges- kid has been an indifferent student through HS (and often middle school as well); key interests are in maintaining a social life or gaming or sports or going to the beach to hang with friends; there is no evidence whatsoever of any intellectual drive and no evidence that the kid is what we used to describe as “college material”.

But due to social pressure, parental anxiety, etc. and despite suggestions from the experienced parents here that they consider a gap year, apprenticeship in electrical/plumbing/arborist/ etc, or have the kid do some testing (undiagnosed learning issues? get at some vocational interests?) the parents double down- my kid is going to college next year.

So let’s all remember this thread next time we read one of these “why doesn’t my kid jump up and down when we visit such picturesque and quaint campuses?” or “who wouldn’t love to live in downtown (fill in the blank city) with cool restaurants”.

College- at the end of the day- is still designed around a medieval construct- students and scholars. All the climbing walls and sushi bars in the world haven’t changed the basic operational format. A kid who shows up for Freshman year who is unable to read college level material is going to have a rough go.

I am very sympathetic to parents who have kids who have not walked the narrow path educationally. But sending a kid off to college hoping for “support” (whether practical- someone to wake your kid up in the morning and haul them out of bed, or skills-specific for remediation) is going to be a risky endeavor even when you think you’ve picked the best possible environment.

Yes- the communication from this college is vulgar in the extreme. But it gets at a reality that a lot of people would rather not deal with- there are kids going to college who will not benefit from a college education that is in any way commensurate with the investment being made.

I’ve sat in on a math class at my local CC (a friend of mine teaches there and described this course as “the hardest we offer”). No, not hard because of the actual math (a smart fourth grader in a good elementary school could have whizzed through the problems). But hard because the class caters to the entire spectrum of CC students- those who are there because they can’t afford college without a full time job and classes at night (but who are smart, ambitious, and studious); those who are there because they slept through HS and this is the only institution which would take a chance on them; those who struggled with LD’s and made it through HS with a C- average but who are hard, hard workers, etc.

But one thing became clear to me- the instructor was not going to go home with every student at night and make sure the homework got done. You want to learn math? I’m your guy. You don’t want to learn math? That’s on you. You have trouble learning math? I can help you with some strategies, but I’m not certified in the right techniques depending on your disability. Your parents want you to learn math which is why you are here but you yourself have zero interest in worksheets, homework, and memorization of formula? Go tell your parents they are wasting their money.

245

Seems like pre-algebra or elementary algebra from this description.

Are the CCs in your area completely unsuitable for students preparing to transfer to a four year university, or does “hardest we offer” mean in the context of the expected students taking the course being the weakest in math? I would expect a CC that does prepare students to transfer to a four year university to offer more advanced math courses than pre-algebra or elementary algebra (it should offer up to calculus, multivariable calculus, linear algebra, and differential equations).

246

My local CC does a poor job of transferring students to the flagship-- but you are correct that it is considered the “hardest we offer” because it’s the “Ellis Island” of first year courses- the tired, the hungry, the bored, etc.

My point though- is that once in a while an indifferent HS student blooms into an engaged college student and clearly- that is what we all hope for the “underprepared” kids we know who head off to college. But I don’t think that’s the norm, and parents who send off such kids (the bunnies, so to speak) should expect that some old-fashioned book larnin’ is going to magically transform their child into a bookish scholar.

There is surely a philosophy (on CC and in our society) that there is a college for everybody if only you look hard enough. I think the president of this U (again- he sounds hideous) at least has uncovered an uncomfortable possibility that this is not so- and that there are scores of colleges who have admitted students who are in no way prepared to be successful at their institution. If there is a gap between what a kid needs in order to do college level work and what a kid shows up with at college… who is responsible? The HS which never taught algebra or trig? The parents who wanted the kid out of the house? The Middle School which never taught the difference between an adjective and a noun? The college loan/financing industry which will pay up until a kid fails to make SAP?

247

Probably all less selective (or non-selective) colleges (or at least the non-predatory ones) need to face the question of how to handle the poorly prepared students with low chance of success. Do they:

(a) Admit them to give them another chance, offering academic support services to help them succeed, although realizing that not all will succeed (basically the mission of open admission community colleges), or
(b) Raise admission standards to minimize the number of low-chance-of-success students entering the school.

But some of the colleges may be in the uncomfortable situation of not having the resources to effectively do (a) (i.e. offer the academic support to increase the weaker students’ chance of success), but are too tuition-dependent to do (b) (i.e. raise admission standards, likely resulting in a smaller entering class if they cannot attract a higher quality applicant pool).

248

I think it is not the college president’s role to try to find kids who are likely to struggle through a deceptive survey and try to force them out of the college. And then fire the profs who call him out on inappropriate behavior. All this discussion of unprepared and unmotivated kids is fine, and mostly true – but colleges have procedures in place to put kids on probation and dismiss them if they do not perform academically. Those processes should be allowed to play out. This guy tried to take a sleazy shortcut to improve the college retention numbers, and got caught and outed. His board is compounding the problem.

249

@blossom, several years ago my H was an adjunct at a local Catholic college, teaching what apparently was the lowest level math course they offered: pre-calc. Typically, the students who took this class were doing so because they needed calculus for their major–nursing, for example–and they obviously had done as little math as they could get away with in HS. Historically, something like 50-60% of the kids who took this class flunked. He was required to teach it the same way the regular professor did. I helped him with checking the homework papers some of the time, so I saw what the kids did.

I would say that the majority of them had no idea how to be students. In this class, credit was given for attendance, and for handing in homework, just like in HS. Credit was given if the student turned in homework, regardless of its accuracy, or whether work was shown. The homework for the unit was either the odd or even problems in the book. The answers were printed in the back of the book. It was perfectly clear that the majority of the students simply went to the back of the book and copied down the answers, without making any attempt at all to actually work the problems. The few students who actually did work the problems were the ones who were passing the course.

H held office hours, and specifically asked certain students to come. No one came. The school provided tutors from among the more advanced students: they didn’t take advantage of it.

During the classes before the final, H went through every problem that would be on the exam, using different values, but otherwise the exact same problem, showing how to solve them.

The usual 50-60% of the class flunked. At least one of them complained that there was material on the exam that she had never been taught.

My larger problem with this was that the college continued to allow people to enroll in this class, knowing that half of them would be wasting their money. I felt that they should have routinely done a placement test and offered remedial classes, if this were going to continue to accept this type of student.

250

Consolation- your post really resonates with me. And to be honest- there are a number of parents of such kids who have posted on CC in the last few years and their posts are both depressing and inspiring at the same time.

Depressing because someone (whether loans or cash) is footing the bill for an experiment in “how to fail” and you gotta wonder how much good those dollars could do deployed against the really ambitious and hard-working low income students who post here who need an extra $2500 to fill the gap between tuition and their own resources. And inspiring because every now and then someone posts about their OWN kid who flunked badly or never went to office hours and never did the homework and never asked a single question during a review session… but a lightbulb turned on at some point and the kid is now excelling at xyz endeavor or career.

I know adults who were the Val/Sal type who flamed out later in life, and I know adults who were the “bottom of the barrel” student who managed to turn things around.

So again- this President is hardly a poster-child for the American educational system, but we can’t throw out the baby with the bathwater. It is an uncomfortable truth that there are kids in college classrooms who are either going to pass but are getting nothing out of their experience, or kids who are circling the drain and shouldn’t have been admitted in the first place.

Does remedial education work? Of course- and we all likely know success stories. But a wanabee nurse who can’t ask for help isn’t going to cut it in nursing. A college student who won’t do homework or go to a review session?

251

Then. They. Should. Not. Have. Admitted. Them.

Now, things are different at open-admissions places, but MSM is not open-admissions. They have the right to say no. And it’s their job to do so, not to allow students in and then pull the rug out from under them when it’s still convenient for them (but terribly much not so for the students or their families).

252

Based on the fall 2015 class…
6,113 students applied
4105 students accepted (67% acceptance rate)
506 students enrolled (12% yield rate)

Middle 50%
SAT CR 460-570
SAT M 450-560
SAT W 450-560

ACT: 18-24

Average GPA: 3.30

% in top 10% of high school: 14%
% in top 25% of high school: 31%
% in top half of high school; 62%
**% in bottom half of high school: 38% **

http://msmary.edu/administration/administration-pdfs/CDS_2015-2016.pdf

253

@Gator88NE “ACT: 18-24”

If you have a quarter of your class below an 18 ACT, why not admit some of the students on the condition that they are expected to come to school a month earlier than other student and take a classes to bolster their math, English, and study skills.

Students who come and make a good faith effort are admitted, and students who have no interest in the extra preparation are not. I would think that would be a fair way to sort out the bunnies.

254

I don’t see how the current procedure the school has in place (academic probation, then dismissal) is “unfair”. There is no excuse for this guy’s attempt to circumvent that.

I certainly think supports for students (like the proposed “early arrival” idea) is a good one. Heck, my kid’s highly ranked STEM school has a month-long class prior to arrival for students have weaker English skills so they can take the intro core writing class with no other distractions and get their academic feet wet before starting regular classes. And there is a mini-Physics retreat on campus for a few days at the end of winter break for kids who might struggle with the upcoming required semester of Mechanics. Who know what kinds of supports MSM already has in place for those students? They probably do have some.

255

20-25 (his target reduction) of 506 is 4-5 percent of the class! That is a lot of mistakes in the admission and enrollment process.

There used to be provisional acceptance programs like the one @Much2learn describes. Come in the summer, take twelve hours, make a certain GPA and you can stay. I am not sure how those counted in the retention statistics but at least a kid knew by August and could enroll in cc by end of August. His plan leaves them stranded for a semester.

UT and A&M have programs that allow a student to enroll part time in CC and part time in the main university and earn their way in. Those students are considered in the stats of the school and hurt the schools’ stats but they run them despite the rankings impact.

256

so the students are cheering this jerk? Perhaps they feel an ego boost since they are not the ones being culled. It’s a slippery slope letting the administration choose to vote 25 students off the island after less than a month on campus. Reminds me of the famous quote from Niemoller: “First they came for the Jews. I was silent. I was not a Jew. Then they came for the Communists. I was silent. I was not a Communist. Then they came for the trade unionists. I was silent. I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for me. There was no one left to speak for me.” ok, these struggling bunnies aren’t being sent to a concentration camp, but being quickly booted from your freshman year instead of given support while you get your footing is an action that can do huge damage to one’s future. I agree with others who have said the school needs to do a better job in it’s admissions process. Also a better job when selecting Trustees and College Presidents.

257

To be fair to the students to some extent, Newman has put out all the stops on effectively selling himself and his/histrustees’ plan as a great effective plan.

He’s also sweetened the deal by promising “Ooo, shiny!” amenities such as a campus Starbucks, new student lounges, and bringing comedians and entertainers to campus:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/02/15/mount-st-marys-reinstates-professors-it-fired

Very interesting considering reports have stated one of the reasons for MSM’s current shaky financial state was the excessive expansion and remodeling of campus facilities/buildings during the last several years. Looks like Newman is repeating some of the same patterns for the sake of providing his version of the the Roman “bread and circuses” to mobilize student support…

258

Wonder if the students literally are not paying attention… could somehow the facts of this not become clear to them (that their “survey” results weren’t kept private and were used to figure out who to kick out, for example)?

259

With their newspaper now effectively censored (since writing out against the president leads to trouble and the new advisers have been appointed, presumably to toe the line and make sure everyone else does), it’d be interested to know how much the students know.
Why do they cheer? Why do they agree? Do they understand what was done and why do they agree with it? DO they understand the alternatives (ie., not admit the students, OR, provide them with help and a semester to succeed)?

260

But also, most of the current students are non-frosh, so they are not affected by the “survey” or resulting actions. Also, among upper class students, the weaker ones have likely already dropped/flunked out, so the ones still enrolled and able to be surveyed are not the ones who are the targets. Of course, it would be short sighted self interest without looking at the bigger picture…