Are College Ranking Lists Useful?

Thanks for all of the feedback. Given the differing methodologies of the list and maybe some inherent geographical and other bias, we view the lists as a starting data point for potential schools also.

Tko, we agree that the lists can be manipulated by some schools in order to create better yields or lower acceptance rates, which would allow such school to rise in the rankings. There are many articles available that discuss how many schools all over the world (like parents) cater to ranking lists and manipulate things in order to climb up the ranking list (which then in turn results in more kids applying which further allows schools to possibly rise in the rankings etc etc etc).

Ultimately we are learning that these lists should probably be used as a starting reference (as opposed to a firm direction) for kids and parents.

For us the best use of the ranking list has been as a follow up to our what our kid is desiring for a college such as size, location, curriculum, sports, etc.

tko, we agree with you your point that rankings can be skewed by external reasons like acceptance rates. For example, we just read that NYU had a record low acceptance rate this year of 15% with 85k applicants. As recently as 2013, NYU’s acceptance rate was 35%. Also, the acceptance rates for 3 of NYU’s undergrad colleges were in the single digits.

The delta in acceptance rates for NYU between 2013 and 2020 is significant. NYU may move up some in the USNWR ranking list given its record low acceptance rate this year.

NYU is a great school but should its ranking on the USNWR move because of the acceptance rate this year? I supposed if acceptance rate is a metric for USNWR, then a move in ranking is expected and certainly possible for schools like NYU.

I think ranking can sometimes be a distraction in the college search. I think it can be a lazy way of choosing a university. People talk of fit. What does that mean to your student? To mine it meant having the program they wanted and being able to understand how the program benefited them. It meant being in a situation they felt they could academically succeed and prepare themselves for the future they were working towards. It meant liking the campus atmosphere and where the students engaged with them when they visited. Other things such as size, distance from home, cost etc. all came into consideration. Ranking really didn’t address any of these considerations.

lvvcsf, we totally agree with you on how the rankings played out for your family. We also feel the rankings offer an easy and lazy way to delegate an important decision of choosing a college to attend. Important decisions like choosing a college should be closely analyzed and not left for rankings to decide, especially since so many unique factors play into the decision.

With that said, I am curious to see how acceptance rates, numbers of applications, etc. during COVID will play out in the college rankings next year.

there are two kinds of people - ones that are influenced by rankings and say they’re influenced by rankings, and the others who are influenced by rankings and say they’re not influenced by rankings.

“I think it can be a lazy way of choosing a university.”

Based on rankings, you should choose MIT or Stanford for computer science. Are you saying the kids that choose those schools based on prestige are making a mistake? Rhetorical question - if you get in to those places, you go.

The rankings themselves don’t really mean much. However, as others have stated, the lists often include information which can be important in deciding whether to apply to a college.

For example, the percent acceptance rate of a college shouldn’t be taken as an indication of how objectively “good” the college is. However, it is helpful to know, when applying to colleges - you don’t want to only apply to colleges which accept fewer than 15% of their applicants.

Endowment is important when thinking about whether to attend a private school, since it will tell you what the impact of something like the present pandemic could be, and, in some cases, whether the school will even stay open until you graduate. It will not, however, tell you whether the college is “good”.

Certain measures are useless, like the faculty to student ratio, since, not only is it very easy to manipulate, and easy to use to provide a very different picture of what the actual reaching experience is like. the “opinion of Top Academics” (to use the language employed by USNews) are also useless, since these are not actually academics, but administrators, who usually have little understanding of actual teaching, and spend an inordinate amount of time searching for easily quantifiable measures of success. The measures they choose tend to be easily quantifiable, but rarely have any meaning. They are also circular (a college is “good” if it has a high USNews rank, so they will rank colleges this year based. in a large part, on the college’s USNews ranking on the previous year).

The lists often have all sorts of information that students find important in deciding whether to attend a college. So, the actual rankings of Niche are useless (based on their rankings, Ivies are The Best At Everything, even at majors which they do not have, and expensive private colleges are ALWAYS better than public ones). However, Niche and some other sites provide students opinions of food and faculty behavior, student politics and characteristics, etc.

Of course these should be taken with a sack or two of salt, since they are a skewed sample, and provided anonymously, but when there are opinions which are shared by a large number of students, and the opinions are strong enough to induce the students to submit them, they are often useful knowledge, so long as one knows that these can be games as well (it is always possible to get a few hundred people to mob a site, so you can get 400 similar opinions which are not from students who attended a college).

Sometimes professional societies will provide their own rankings, which are more useful than those produced by entities like USNews. However, even in these there is often control of the leadership of some societies by the graduates of a small number of colleges, so these colleges will, of course, always appear at the top of every ranked list produced by the societies.

Rankings are basically a process of simplifying, or more appropriately, oversimplifying, a set of measures to a single numerical number, the position of a college in the rankings. There’re infinite number of ways to do this and none can capture the full spectrum of measures that are meaningful to all students. Some measures may be more important to you and some less so. It is much better to look at the underlying data, picking out the measures that are important to you and constructing your own “rankings” if you will.

Combining a wide swatch of rankings with fit criteria can help create the list to start exploring. We had S define his fit criteria (location, size, setting, strength of programs, etc.). We then used a combination of rankings to ID schools that were highly ranked and within his criteria. He wanted east coast so never considered highly ranked schools in the midwest or west coast. He wanted suburban so never considered urban schools.

There are lots of schools out there. You have to base search decisions on something. Assuming affordable, why not higher ranked. May not mean they’re better but it certainly doesn’t mean they’re worse.

Regarding some of the comments on acceptance rates, note that U.S. News does not consider them as a factor in its rankings.

I see there have been plenty of responses, but IMO, the best ranking lists are the ones that put my kids’ colleges the highest.?

There are fantastic colleges that don’t appear at all in some rankings, notably a list like USNWR. This can be due to refusing to comply with the metrics USNWR uses to compile its rankings.

Scroll down to How US News ranks colleges. Find #2. https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/rankings-faq

They change their methodology every year. Some colleges refuse to play the game, such as Reed College. Others are notorious for gaming USNWR to boost their ranking, such as Northeastern.

IMO, lists are useful mostly for learning about colleges that might work for your child. But a good guide book, such as Fiske, is a better bet.

The article referenced in this thread analyzes the degree to which Reed appears to be penalized for declining to participate in U.S. News surveys: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/reed-college/2151423-reeds-usn-rank-estimated-at-54-places-higher-under-a-fair-evaluation.html#latest.

I like this type of discussion and I liked discussing college rankings with my college-bound child.

IMO, it’s not that I think someone makes a mistake if they are admitted to MIT, can afford MIT, and decides to attend MIT. MIT is a great school.

My objection comes when someone looks at the USNWR list and decides that Northeastern is the type of school they want to attend. This student may auto-eliminate the top-15 universities as being too reachy, apply to a handful in the 20-60 range, but decide that #40 Northeastern is his #1 option, with a major reason being the student’s desire to be heavily involved in a co-op educational experience. Let’s say Northeastern did not accept him.

I would question that student’s decision-making process if he then pivoted and chose to attend Pepperdine, mainly for the reason that it was the next highest-ranked school that accepted him and it allowed him to attend a top-50 ranked school. That student may voice the opinion that there is no way he could attend Drexel or U Cincinnatti (ranked #97 and #139 by USNWR) because their rankings are too low for a student of his caliber. However, Drexel and UCinn are very fine co-op universities and even ranked as the #2 and #3 co-op schools by the same USNWR. In this situation, it would not make sense to bypass those two schools to attend Pepperdine.

Ignoring good, respectable schools that fit a student’s self-described profile for the sole reason being that the rankings are not high enough, is how I would describe “a lazy way of choosing a university.”

And I think it’s obvious that a great many students (and parents) on CC choose which colleges are acceptable options mostly by the rankings of sources like USNWR, without much regard to other more pertinent criteria.

I especially liked Fiske for their decision to not rank the schools. Listing them alphabetically seems a much more level-headed way to approach such all-encompassing lists.

I also like Niche’s way of grading schools instead of ranking them. We can infer that an A+ graded school is a little better than an A- school. However, Niche leaves it up to each person to decide which A graded school is the best for them without placing unnecessary # rankings beside each school.

Further, Niche provides the category rankings from which the overall ranking was calculated. If I see that between two A options, one received its lowest grade for “Party School” while the other received its lowest grade for “Professors”, I can make the decision to choose the quality of Professors over the quality of Parties – all other things being equal.

@merc81 , thanks for the link. It lead me down a rabbit hole, where I found this nugget of wisdom, from the always-readable Malcolm Gladwell. This article is from 2011, but much of it still holds true: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/02/14/the-order-of-things

The article discusses why USNWR’s methodology is flawed.

There is no one perfect and indisputable ranking system. And who goes around saying “My kid attends the number 1 ranked college in America”? No one. Being realistic, there is literally a handful of colleges that most people are familiar with. If your kid goes to Harvard or Yale, most people know those names. By the time you get to U Penn versus Penn State, many people honestly have no clue about which college is which. Even Stanford and MIT can draw a blank stare.

@EconPop , we also like Niche. My kids pretty much only used Niche, in addition to Fiske, when doing research. Niche isn’t that authoritative, but it has a leg up over others because it incorporates student feedback. That gives it a lot more credibility, in the eyes of youth.

I am “helping” a close family friend that has a daughter that will be a HS senior this year. She has it all. The one thing I keep telling her is look past the rankings. It’s hard unfortunately when your kid is top 1% or so it seems. I hammered home the affordability and “fit” concerns. They are finally realizing that just due to her stats she won’t get a full rides just by showing up.
LOL…

She goes to a known local school that should of gone through this already and they just did a admission Zoom cast a few days ago but somehow people don’t listen to that part… Lol.

Just look at “College’s that change lives book” . Great, Great schools and wouldn’t really be to concerned about rank at these.

Again, affordability and fit to me is so much more important.

Niche to me was a side thing to use. It helped a bit. Not sure what useful information my kids got out of it or Reddit? There always seemed to be some kids that dropped out that complained a lot or the kids that “love” their schools
But some information was pretty concrete like saying if you don’t study at X school Monday - Friday and then ease up on weekends you will most likely fail. Or that the library’s are always packed on Saturday night was telling to me.

It definitely seems to be more popular and more credible with students than parents. At least in my household.

In the beginning, my son was very excited about Niche and I dismissed its usefulness. After refusing to use it in the beginning, I slowly began referring to Niche a little more and more. After a long while, I came around to appreciating it usefulness within a certain range. I don’t consider it a main decision-making source, but I like certain facets of it. I like how, using various features, I can branch out from one university and discover other colleges to investigate. I then went to other resources to find out more about some of those new finds.

I personally think Reddit is good for doing research in to various schools and programs.

I’m not a big fan of rankings in part because they try to squish the huge variety of higher ed institutions in the US in to one or 2 lists, which means schools that are more specialized/nichey/unique may be overlooked because they simply aren’t on the radar of many kids. I am a fan of various aspects of Olin, Cooper Union, WPI, NCF, CalPoly SLO, William Jewell, and Sarah Lawrence for instance, yet some kids who may actually be terrific fits there may completely overlook them because they only look at the top of some list or another. Kids who may be terrible fits for MIT or Caltech may feel compelled to go there even though they may actually fit better and be more successful in life after attending a Cal Poly SLO or RIT.

Finally, rankings tend to be national or, if they are international, concentrate heavily/solely on research prowess. So a program like the ESSEC BBA or Durham Natural Sciences may hit a certain student’s sweet spot, but they may not even hear of it if it’s not on a ranking a typical American HS kid looks at.

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When we started the college application process for my D, we admittedly looked at and probably relied too much on the popular rankings lists. We also thought Fiske provided great and more in depth info on schools. All of the rankings and methodologies ended up being a bit of information overload, so much so that we had to hit the re-set button and start over with a better and focused way to process the literally voluminous amounts of available ranking and other college info.

We (and my D’s college counselors) had our D list a few general criteria that my D sought for a college. This criteria was very general and included location, school size, spirit, sports, academic challenge, Greek life, food options, etc. Then we had my D, my wife and me come up with our own personal rankings of colleges using the general criteria our D listed and based on each of our own research of colleges. We all used and each put our weight on different sources and rankings lists to come up with our own independent ranking list (which we all agreed would be fluid and subject to change based on input from others).

Oddly enough, we all came up with the exact same schools in our individual rankings for the top 15 schools and our top 5 schools were exactly the same in terms of order of preference. The entire exercise was not only helpful but also a great way to bond with our D in helping her make an important decision in her life. Also our individual lists deviated quite a bit from did the popular published ranking lists such as niche, usnwr, Forbes, etc.

The takeaway for me as a parent is that there are so many qualities and nuances that schools offer and the process of drilling down on these qualities is the key to finding the best fit. There is no magic formula or secret sauce in finding the best fit just like there are no guarantees on a school being perfect.

We honestly feel our D would happy and thrive at a variety of different schools and stress to our D that making the most of the college experience starts with her.

Similar to what rickle and knowsstuff stated, we found great value in developing our own ranking list in terms of not only the result of our list but also the process of developing our list

“I also like Niche’s way of grading schools instead of ranking them.”

Niche definitely ranks though, they pretty much have to, so I don’t ding them for that. However their rankings of majors includes how the college does in the overall rankings, which is like double counting and rewarding the top schools.

There’s a lot of garbage in garbage out at Niche, not saying others are better, take all rankings with a grain of salt.

For us we didn’t even look at the rankings at first. We looked at what school’s had the major he wanted, what size school he was looking for and then narrowed that down. Turned out he wanted Animal Science, a college with a Veterinary College, a Land Grant University, one with a decent football team and a good chance of getting into vet school. An early admit program was a plus. That narrowed it down. He picked schools in geographical area he though were good and we picked 6 to visit. From there he got his top two quickly. We glanced at rankings and were really glad we didn’t look at them first. Rankings for the program was better.

Most of the things the rankings were ranking we weren’t all that interested in. Now he has finished undergrad and was accepted into veterinary school with top grades undergrad. Top 1% of class. He is VERY happy with his decision. We ended up with no debt and low cost for undergrad even though he went OOS so we are happy too!