are colleges racist?

[texaspg]

<p>Xiggi - the study uses 1995, a generation ago. Is that still the case though? (where is mini when I need him to say Ivies don’t like poor people!).</p>

<p>sewhappy - I suspect with all the Asians that get rejected, Ivies can pick the cream I suppose.</p>

<p>If you don’t mind me asking, what do you think got your kid into HYPS?</p>

[epiphany]

<p>

What does a 17 year old have in the way of currency? Scores and gpa mostly. If you charge more from those 17 year-old applicants from one race than from others then you are practicing price discrimination.

</p>

<p>This could not be more wrong. And btw, if they did use only or mostly scores & gpa, they would still be rejecting a ton of applicants among races/ethnicities. The action for some time has been in: e.c.'s, leadership, essays, personal statements, letters of rec. This is where one high-achieving student is distinguished from another high-achieving student.</p>

[epiphany]

<p>

I simply suggested to people who participate in this conversation to look at QB because they have no racial limitations. Was that a problem?

</p>

<p>Because you addressed me, but my combined posts said clearly that I was referring to college-specific, college-limited scholarships, not to Questbridge, which is combined colleges by assocation with QB.</p>

<p>Posters refuse to address this, btw. The last direct response I read was regarding National Achievement Scholarship, which does not address it, because (as my earlier post indicated), that’s about sorting (i.e., a parallel scholarship), not about college-specific merit scholarships limited only to URM’s, and shutting out merit aid for anyone who is poor but non-URM.</p>

<p>There are non-QB merit scholarships at many colleges for those who do not qualify for National Merit cutoffs for their state, for example, but fit the numerical qualifiers for that scholarship (grades, scores). Yet those scholarships are strictly for URM’s.</p>

[epiphany]

<p>Post 1999:</p>

<p>Again, I truly resent it when one poster’s quote is “answered” inappropriately by a second poster’s quote, by the responder. This just happened again. My post had nothing to do with the Jewish population. Nothing. But I was quoted as if it did. </p>

<p>Try to follow, folks. I know it’s hard.</p>

[bovertine]

<p>

There’s been discussion on here about racial discrimination meaning holding a certain race as inferior or superior to others. For me this pretty much fits. If the Asian kid must score 200 points over the rest of the fray to get a look then that is most certainly saying in no uncertain terms that the Asian kid is from an inferior race. He or she has to pay more to get in, ie, cough up the academic currency that helps drives the rankings.</p>

<p>

Even if the 200 point allegation is true, another absurd analogy.</p>

<p>In the book “The Early Admissions Game” Avery showed that statistically the SAT scores of early admits were lower than those of regular admits. Is this some sort of smoking gun that the adcoms consider all regular admits inherently superior genetically to early admits?</p>

<p>For UC schools the adcoms concede that the admissions requirements for out of state applicants are higher than those for in state applicants. Does this mean that the UC admissions people consider out of state applicants to be intrinsically inferior human beings?</p>

[paukid]

<p>My two cents:</p>

<p>There are so many Asian people wanting to study in the US that it looks like schools are rejecting them but no, its all the way around, they have been opening more spaces for asians. Obviously they have to struggle and apply with stellar stats but that is because of the big quantity of students applying.</p>

<p>Sent from my X10a using CC App</p>

[Shrinkrap]

<p>“The last direct response I read was regarding National Achievement Scholarship, which does not address it, because (as my earlier post indicated), that’s about sorting (i.e., a parallel scholarship), not about college-specific merit scholarships limited only to URM’s, and shutting out merit aid for anyone who is poor but non-URM.”</p>

<p>Ok,then I take back saying I was wrong… I think…I don’t know about “college-specific merit scholarships limited only to URM’s, and shutting out merit aid for anyone who is poor but non-URM”. </p>

<p>Theoretically, merit aid is about merit and not need, but yeah… just theory …and perhaps with URM’s, more so…</p>

<p>It’s the non-poor URM scholarships I’m skeptical about. Since some say the debate is really about non-poor URM’s… I think I’m getting the vapors…</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

If the Asian kid must score 200 points over the rest of the fray to get a look then that is most certainly saying in no uncertain terms that the Asian kid is from an inferior race. He or she has to pay more to get in, ie, cough up the academic currency that helps drives the rankings.

</p>

<p>This is the most nonsensical comment. If the pool of Asian applicants has higher SAT scores, then it stands to reason that the pool of admitteds will have higher SAT scores.</p>

[epiphany]

<p>Shrinkrap, your first paragraph in post 1998 addressed the specific issue I was referring to. The second paragraph did not. That’s all I’m saying. National Achievement Scholarships are not related to the concern that was initially raised about this.</p>

<p>I agree. No one gets a scholarship for “just being” of a particular category. Even private scholarships (private organizations) award for membership in the category PLUS achievement and/or practical contribution of some kind (and often intended major/program at college, and most often an essay as well!).</p>

<p>But what I’m saying is that these scores/gpa cutoffs that are college-unique are often relatively generous: top 10% of class, even top 20%. I.m.o., such merit scholarships should be open to all (URM and non-URM) who qualify by the institution’s definition of numerical qualification, regardless of NM/PSAT cutoffs, etc.</p>

[Shrinkrap]

<p>^Okay thanks.</p>

<p>So, I get that you don’t approve, but I would love to start getting a list of these scholarships. They are mentioned a LOT, but I don’t have even one specific school on my list. </p>

<p>1) So I can refer folks that might benefit (this is among the most important issues for my Greek organization, and all the historically black Greek organizations I know. We spend all year raising money for these kids, and sending emails about opportunities; I have not gotten ANY of the ones you describe, in more than five years. The Greek organizations around here do offer them; we work very hard to raise money. We hold a baccalaureate for any black high school graduate in the county.)</p>

<p>2) Also, so that I might shut up and just listen. </p>

<p>Promise.</p>

[epiphany]

<p>^fair enough.</p>

[xiggi]

<p>

Because you addressed me, but my combined posts said clearly that I was referring to college-specific, college-limited scholarships, not to Questbridge, which is combined colleges by assocation with QB.

</p>

<p>Jesus, what is wrong with posters in this thread? Why do every word has to be parsed to find a fault? Why is everything seen as a direct rebuttal? </p>

<p>Where in the world did I address you in this thread, Epiphany? I gave your post a quick glance (as I usually do), and saw something I thought was worth addressing. </p>

<p>For reference, here is what I quoted</p>

<p>

@Epiphany

I may not agree with aegrisomnia’s language, but I definitely agree with the fact that at many, many universities and colleges – public and private, I will add – there is a blatantly inaccurate assumption that only blacks and hispanics are poor. I strongly disapprove of such scholarship policies. Plenty of southeast Asians, plenty of whites, some recent immigrants (but U.S. citizens) from mainland China, some from India, are as poor as any black or hispanic applying. But they are shut out from scholarship consideration. And that exclusion can result in non-application or non-enrollment.

</p>

<p>And here is my post:

It would not be a bad idea to look at the information posted on the Questbridge site. The organization has been extremely transparent about their mission and their results. As some might know, their process makes no racial distinctions but establshes a financial limitation. </p>

<p>QuestBridge Home</p>

<p>Fwiw, although this is not as transparent, one needs to be aware that there are more students who benefit from QB’s process than is reflected in the College Match results. For instance, while could conclude that there are about 40 QB students at Stanford, the number of students who were ultimately accepted is about three times as large.</p>

<p>As as additional fwiw, it should be clear that NONE of the QB successful candidates belong the high middle class. This is obviously in direct contradiction to what has been intimated several times in this thread, namely that MOST URM at HYPS are part of the upper middle class.

</p>

[Canuckguy]

<p>

Again, I truly resent it when one poster’s quote is “answered” inappropriately by a second poster’s quote, by the responder.

</p>

<p>Allow me to rephrase. “Power relations between major social groups” explains “generous scholarships only to URM’s”; “power relations between major social groups” also explains why Jewish overrepresentation at the elites do not get the negative attention that Asians overrepresentation do. </p>

<p>Lani Guinier, Bennett Boskey Professor at Harvard Law School and coauthor of The Miners Canary probably had the same thought in mind with the following:</p>

<p>*The Chosen is a refreshingly candid account of the admissions madness at elite colleges, where merit often functioned simply as a handmaiden to power. *</p>

<p>My apology for any misunderstanding.</p>

[xiggi]

<p>

For me this pretty much fits. If the Asian kid must score 200 points over the rest of the fray to get a look then that is most certainly saying in no uncertain terms that the Asian kid is from an inferior race.

</p>

<p>There is only one problem with this line of reasoning, and a big one. There is no evidence that this is actually true. In addition, if it were true it would mean absolutely nothing as the standardized tests represent only one element out of many. </p>

<p>To the objective observer, it seems that some students might need to score 200 points (a highly doubtful number if there was ever one) to overcome an otherwise lackluster application. Just as it seems that some students can overcome a lower score with superior performance in other areas. Performance within a context! </p>

<p>Isn’t that holistic reviews are all about?</p>

[calimami]

<p>WHERE are these plentiful, abundant “generous scholarships only to URMs”??? where…where… whhhheeeeerrrre??? </p>

<p>somebody please show me (and my son) the moneeeeeeeeeeeyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!! where is this magical list? </p>

<p>by the way, i prefer the term HSP (historically shortchanged populations). will that change in terminology stop the endlessly misguided whining, hatred, and bitterness? probably not.</p>

[mathmom]

<p>

What does a 17 year old have in the way of currency? Scores and gpa mostly. If you charge more from those 17 year-old applicants from one race than from others then you are practicing price discrimination.

That’s what they think and that’s where they are wrong. My younger son had a good but not stellar GPA (B+ in core courses), he had a stellar verbal SAT, but his math SAT never made it over 700. He didn’t say “Oh woe is me” they’ll never look at me, he said I have to hit it out of the ballpark on essays and teacher recommendations. And he did. He also chose some schools that he knew would care about the soft parts of his application and were less risk adverse than the usual suspects. He’s not Asian, but he’s white, unhooked, no athlete.</p>

[epiphany]

<p>

what is wrong with posters in this thread? Why do every word has to be parsed to find a fault? Why is everything seen as a direct rebuttal? </p>

<p>Where in the world did I address you in this thread, Epiphany? I gave your post a quick glance (as I usually do), and saw something I thought was worth addressing.

</p>

<p>I find your profanity offensive, so I eliminated it.</p>

<p>When any poster quotes someone, and uses that quote as a basis of “response” to that quote, and especially when the “response” is non-responsive to the quote, it is objectionable, because it is illogical. You’re one of the people on this thread who has raised vociferous arguments about coherent responses to questions raised. QB had zero to do with my earlier statements. I don’t even think it had to do with aegrisomnia’s statement, which was race-related, and which was the post to which I replied. QB is economically-based, NOT race-based.</p>

<p>From the site:

Eligibility for QuestBridge programs
What qualifies a student as “low-income”?
College Prep Scholarship awards are intended for students who come from families experiencing financial difficulties. Last year’s scholarship recipients typically came from households earning between $0 and $60,000 annually. If you come from a household earning more than this amount but still feel that you have faced economic hardship, there is room on the application to explain your situation.
Can I apply for the College Prep Scholarship if I am not a U.S. citizen or Permanent Resident?
If you are a U.S. citizen, Permanent Resident, or international student residing in the United States, you are
eligible to apply for the College Prep Scholarship. International students living outside the U.S. are not eligible
to apply.
Is the College Prep Scholarship only for minorities?
No. QuestBridge programs are open to students of all races, ethnicities, and cultural backgrounds.
QuestBridge selection criteria
What criteria are used to select College Prep Scholarship award recipients?
Students are evaluated based on every section of the application. No single factor is decisive. Grades, curriculum, standardized test scores (if available), socioeconomic factors, teacher recommendation, and essayresponses are the most heavily weighted factors. Due to the volume of applications that we receive, QuestBridge cannot comment on individual application decisions.

</p>

[epiphany]

<p>

My apology for any misunderstanding.

</p>

<p>Your gracious apology accepted, Canuckguy, and thank you for the explanation.</p>

[performersmom]

<p>mathmom-
where did your son get in, go??? What is he thinking of majoring in??
His profile is very interesting. Congratulate him for such a strong and wise and valiant effort. Congratulations to you for being his support.</p>

[epiphany]

<p>

WHERE are these plentiful, abundant “generous scholarships only to URMs”??? where…where… whhhheeeeerrrre??? </p>

<p>somebody please show me (and my son) the moneeeeeeeeeeeyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!! where is this magical list?

</p>

<p>LOL. This is why I go crazy with the lack of centralized data. I’ll tell you that I have only stumbled upon the scholarships open to individuals enrolling in private and public universities in various States. If anyone has the magical algorithm, please do share. When you input any number of combos into search engine boxes, such as underrepresented minority scholarships, etc., what you come up with (I’m sure you know) are ethnic associations which offer those, or private foundations, etc. </p>

<p>I began this search long ago. I was searching for non-URM students looking for merit aid, via the colleges directly being applied to. I was shocked to find that what was there was for URM’s only.</p>

<p>

by the way, i prefer the term HSP (historically shortchanged populations). will that change in terminology stop the endlessly misguided whining, hatred, and bitterness? probably not.

</p>

<p>I agree with you on that portion. I want to repeat that I also agree on sorting. I have no problem with distinctly URM scholarships offered by every college in the USA, for that matter. That is not my beef. If it is assumed that a low-SES student who has worked hard, achieved well, and happens to be a URM, cannot attend that college without aid (or might go elsewhere, which would not benefit the college to lose such a student), then I see perfect logic in a college which has a favorable URM admissions policy (many do, obviously) to generously fund the best of those low-income URM admits.</p>

<p>I just think that equal funds should be available to equally poor non-URM, similarly high-achieving students. That’s all I’m saying, and I hope that’s clear. I mean no ‘hatred, whining,’ and feel no “bitterness.” I strongly support favorable URM admissions policies at non-HBCU institutions.</p>