are colleges racist?

[Bay]

<p>

by definition impossible to detect “unconscious bias.”

</p>

<p>That is certainly a mouthful.</p>

[epiphany]

<p>

Epiphany, that is an interesting analysis about California’s college opportunities vs those of other states vis a vis the Asian component of the population.</p>

<p>How does CA compare with Virginia? I have been quite impressed with VA’s publics, and aren’t there a number of privates, too?

</p>

<p>I was thinking about that comparison myself, P.M., when posting about CA. Before looking into that, I wanted to finish posting percentages of Asian student body in the science-heavy CA publics + Harvey Mudd +USC, since siserune and I are making the point about diverting a signficant Asian percentage, due to available options in the State:</p>

<p>INSTITUTION / % ASIAN</p>

<p>UCB / 42</p>

<p>UCLA / 40</p>

<p>UCSD / 50</p>

<p>UCD / 42</p>

<p>USC / 28</p>

<p>Harvey Mudd / 28</p>

<p>Cal Poly SLO / 11</p>

[mokusatsu]

<p>

@fabrizio

assigning each applicant a unique identifier per application cycle and limiting the infamous box to “Are you a ‘URM’? If ‘yes,’ please check one or more of the following:”?

Do you also propose to get rid of the citizenship-status and family questions on the Common App?</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

It makes a lot of sense to use the Jewish quota as a historic model because many of the arguments for it were the same. The whole idea of “holistic” admissions was invented so that they could surreptitiously discriminate. The language they used then and today were remarkably similar (diversity, etc.)

</p>

<p>You would have a point if there was any evidence that any of the schools are capping Asian quotas at x% the way they capped Jewish enrollment at y% back then, or that they are either implicitly or explicitly saying that Asians themselves are undesirable to have in a campus. Of course, that would require distinguishing between the concept of “Too many X’s on a campus are not good because X’s are undesirable people who bring down the overall feel” versus “Too many of any one kind - whether X, Y or Z - is not good because our potential students and constituents value a diverse student population.” But, feel free to play dumb and pretend the 2 are equivalent.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

You correctly remembered that I changed my surname and called it an extreme measure. I then asked you why Larry Summers isn’t Larry Samuelson.

</p>

<p>Remind me, again, of the YEAR in which the Summers family changed their names? Was it during the same time frame that you legally changed yours? Because I find it patently silly to compare a name change during a time of anti-Jewish bias to a name change today. </p>

<p>I also have to say, you’re in a southern state and I’ve got to believe the experience of an Asian-American in a rural southern area is not like the experience in the north or in larger cities (regardless of whether such cities have high Asian pop or not).</p>

[performersmom]

<p>“I also have to say, you’re in a southern state and I’ve got to believe the experience of an Asian-American in a rural southern area is not like the experience in the north or in larger cities (regardless of whether such cities have high Asian pop or not)”</p>

<p>What is this, now???
[I realize this is a personal take on F, but…]</p>

<p>So, by extrapolation, Asians ARE treated with discrimination in some regions?
So, by further extrapolation, does the need for AA for a given person vary depending on WHERE a person is from? Should AdComms be considering this for all the URM’s, the ORM’s, etc?</p>

<p>OMG</p>

[johnwesley]

<p>collegealum314 wrote:

Quote:
Otherwise, it would make little sense for Fabrizio to continually use the Jewish quota as a historic model for discrimination in college admissions since 1) it predates affirmative action by many decades 2) demonstrates that discrimination can exist independently from affirmative action and 3) shows that affirmative action is being used as a red herring in the current discussion. </p>

<p>It makes a lot of sense to use the Jewish quota as a historic model because many of the arguments for it were the same. The whole idea of “holistic” admissions was invented so that they could surreptitiously discriminate. The language they used then and today were remarkably similar (diversity, etc.)</p>

<p>Karabel uses the similarity between Jewish quotas and Asian discriminatino as a central theme.

</p>

<p>Karabel was writing about a very common trope that was extant thirty years ago or whenever it was that he was an adcom at Stanford. Whether or not it actually was true, it certainly has been dispelled, at least on the campuses I have visited where Asian Americans are among the most lively and involved students on campus. Those campuses include Wesleyan, Barnard, Yale, Amherst and Smith which are all known for their holistic approaches to admissions. Perhaps, Karabel’s experience should be viewed as an example of how stereotypes can actually change over time due to holistic approaches to admissions?</p>

[skrlvr]

<p>It’s funny how the historical aspects of ‘holistic’ admission gets brought up in the context of racism and college admissions, implying that a ‘stats only’ type of admission would avoid that kind of bias. And yet we forget about the early history of IQ testing.</p>

[johnwesley]

<p>performersmon wrote:

So, by extrapolation, Asians ARE treated with discrimination in some regions?
So, by further extrapolation, does the need for AA for a given person vary depending on WHERE a person is from? Should AdComms be considering this for all the URM’s, the ORM’s, etc?</p>

<p>OMG

</p>

<p>Why does that NOT sound so farfetched to me? I’ve advised lots of CC posters to include what it was like growing up as “the only [fill in desired gender, race, religion HERE]” as possible essay topics. What’s so wierd about that?</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

So, by further extrapolation, does the need for AA for a given person vary depending on WHERE a person is from? Should AdComms be considering this for all the URM’s, the ORM’s, etc?

</p>

<p>Well, duh, I’m pretty confident the schools can figure out that the black kid from the rough inner city neighborhood who has a single working-class mother and can’t participate in EC’s because he has to babysit younger siblings might benefit more from a “hand up” than the black kid who grew up in Greenwich, the son of two physicians, and attended an elite boarding school and wrote his essay on his extensive travels to Europe. Which is why – sing it with me one more time – it is all evaluated IN CONTEXT. The way some of you people talk, you’d think that decisions are made, the race is revealed, and then the decision is “flipped” / adjusted as a result of that one piece of info.</p>

[texaspg]

<p>Bay - I checked Asian levels in Texas. It is at 3.8% (lower than national norm at 4.8%) and just under 1 mil out of 25 mil.</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>

Just for the record, you never provided an answer to this question, but that is not surprising.

</p>

<p>I asked you the question, did I not? Again, if you’re going to quote a sentence and not read the following sentence or assume that I wrote things I didn’t, why discuss with me?</p>

<p>

That is certainly a mouthful.

</p>

<p>Well, you got your answer, did you not? And I made it a mouthful to emphasize “unconscious.”</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>

Do you also propose to get rid of the citizenship-status and family questions on the Common App?

</p>

<p>No.</p>

<p>

I also have to say, you’re in a southern state and I’ve got to believe the experience of an Asian-American in a rural southern area is not like the experience in the north or in larger cities (regardless of whether such cities have high Asian pop or not).

</p>

<p>Nice try, but [some</a> things are the same](<a href=“http://www.webcitation.org/5u6KsjeoE]some”>http://www.webcitation.org/5u6KsjeoE):</p>

<p>Some people still can’t look past [Jeremy Lin’s] ethnicity. Everywhere he plays, Lin is the target of cruel taunts. “It’s everything you can imagine,” he says. “Racial slurs, racial jokes, all having to do with being Asian.” Even at the Ivy League gyms? “I’ve heard it at most of the Ivies if not all of them,” he says. Lin is reluctant to mention the specific nature of such insults, but according to Harvard teammate Oliver McNally, another Ivy League player called him a C word that rhymes with ink during a game last season. On Dec. 23, during Harvard’s 86-70 loss to Georgetown in Washington, McNally says, one spectator yelled “Sweet-and-sour pork!” from the stands.</p>

<p>Don’t tell me, Pizzagirl. Those hecklers at the Ivies…they’re all Southerners, right?</p>

<p>Racism is alive and well in the South. I know this first-hand in two ways; I’ve had anti-Asian slurs directed to me, and I’ve heard whites make anti-black remarks in the locker room. But I think your post is predicated on a stereotype that “the north” is better than the South when it comes to this.</p>

<p>To be fair, I have never lived in “the north.” But I know this: white families didn’t run away from my high school because it was 50% black. I doubt the same is true where you live, but I’d be glad to be proven wrong.</p>

[collegealum314]

<p>

You would have a point if there was any evidence that any of the schools are capping Asian quotas at x% the way they capped Jewish enrollment at y% back then, or that they are either implicitly or explicitly saying that Asians themselves are undesirable to have in a campus. **Of course, that would require distinguishing between the concept of “Too many X’s on a campus are not good because X’s are undesirable people who bring down the overall feel” versus “Too many of any one kind - whether X, Y or Z - is not good because our potential students and constituents value a diverse student population.” **But, feel free to play dumb and pretend the 2 are equivalent.

</p>

<p>Um, I’m not playing dumb. The second statement, “Too many of any one kind (Jews) is not good because our potential students and constituents value a diverse student population.” was actually used as a reason for capping Jewish enrollment. In fact, former Harvard president Lowell said that Jews themselves wouldn’t want to attend a university that had too many Jews. Karabel is a good read, and I highly recommend it.</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>

Of course, that would require distinguishing between the concept of “Too many X’s on a campus are not good because X’s are undesirable people who bring down the overall feel” versus “Too many of any one kind - whether X, Y or Z - is not good because our potential students and constituents value a diverse student population.”

In fact, former Harvard president Lowell said that Jews themselves wouldn’t want to attend a university that had too many Jews.

</p>

<p>collegealum314 is absolutely right. Lowell said "The summer hotel that is ruined by admitting Jews meets its fate . . . because they drive away the Gentiles, and then after the Gentiles have left, [they</a> leave also](<a href="Getting In | The New Yorker;

[Hunt]

<p>

Did you have any objections to assigning each applicant a unique identifier per application cycle and limiting the infamous box to “Are you a ‘URM’? If ‘yes,’ please check one or more of the following:”?

No, I wouldn’t. As I’ve said numerous times, I see no purpose in schools discriminating between whites and Asians on the basis of race alone. I’ve just questioned whether they are actually doing it or not.</p>

<p>Now you answer my question: what facts, specifically, make you think they are doing it?</p>

[xiggi]

<p>

I know this is OT. But I guess it would be interesting to see what % of populations of Va/Md/DC and TX are “Asian.” </p>

<p>TX and FL and CA would sem to have very large Hispanic populations, as well.
How do Hispanics show up at the top publics of all these states?

</p>

<p>That is an interesting question and one that offers a remarkable answer, at least in terms of admission rates and representation: </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.utexas.edu/student/admissions/research/HB588-Report13.pdf[/url]”>http://www.utexas.edu/student/admissions/research/HB588-Report13.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Fwiw, the issue of reclassification (see continuing and deliberate erroneous interpretation of Stanford’s number above) is also presented here:</p>

<p>

Table 1 below illustrates the numbers of applicants, admits, and enrolled students from 2007 through 2010. Throughout this report, n‐counts include first‐time freshmen for the fall plus those entering during the preceding summer and continuing into the fall. Please note that federally‐mandated data collection and reporting methodologies affecting race/ethnicity changed dramatically in 2010 and categories are no longer congruent.

</p>

<p>But what is this remarkable? In Texas, there are two flagship schools. UT-Austin could be compared to Cal and TAMU to UCLA.</p>

<p>Here are the numbers for Fall 2010</p>

<p>UT-Austin %age
Nonresident aliens 1712 5%
Hispanic / Latino 7362 20%
Black or African American 1778 5%
White, non-Hispanic/Latino 19391 51%
American Indian/Alaska 149 0%
Asian, non-Hispanic 6770 18%
Native Hawaiian/Pacific 10 0%
Two or more races 382 1%
Race/ethnicity unknown 135 0%
Total 37689 100%</p>

<p>Texas A$M %age
Nonresident aliens 556 1%
Hispanic / Latino 6214 16%
Black or African American 1300 3%
White, non-Hispanic/Latino 28,323 73%
American Indian/Alaska 148 0%
Asian, non-Hispanic 1766 5%
Native Hawaiian/Pacific 51 0%
Two or more races 636 2%
Race/ethnicity unknown 55 0%
Total 39049 100%</p>

<p>Clustering?</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>

No, I wouldn’t. As I’ve said numerous times, I see no purpose in schools discriminating between whites and Asians on the basis of race alone. I’ve just questioned whether they are actually doing it or not.

</p>

<p>Thank you.</p>

<p>

Now you answer my question: what facts, specifically, make you think they are doing it?

</p>

<p>I’ve already answered this in post #2214, which itself copied from #1934. Moreover, I stated in post #2266 that “the notion of ‘negative action’ isn’t complete bunk; it happened. The question is whether it still happens. Of course that is very difficult to prove without being there.”</p>

<p>I’d like for you to explain your “learned to speak English really well” comment about Jews.</p>

[johnwesley]

<p>Fabrizio, said:

But I think your post is predicated on a stereotype that “the north” is better than the South when it comes to this.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Someone call the Fire dept, I’ve found another straw man. That isn’t what Pizzagirl said, and it isn’t even remotely what she meant.</p>

[sm74]

<p>I think actually the opposite is true-that un-hooked whites are clearly the most discriminated against. In 2010 whites had 280,226 scores of 5 on the Ap tests, while Asians had 95,234. Not a perfect way to analyze expected admission stats but based on those results one would expect that around 3 times as many whites would be admitted as Asians. And that is roughly the case at many elite schools-15% Asian and 45% White. But when you back out the fact that the vast majority of athletic, legacy, celebrity…admits are white then you are left with 15% un-hooked white admits or around the same as Asians.</p>