are colleges racist?

[woeishe]

<p>

I think many kids and families look at the middle 50 percentile scores and think they just have to hit that and that their passion or community service will do the rest.

But it seems correct. Only 25% of enrolled students are above the middle range. If all the students above the middle range are unhooked, then 75% of the unhooked are in the middle range!</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

The influence of the Jewish lobby changed many things in favor for the Jewish community at large, including academics.

</p>

<p>I’m not really sure that the increased social acceptance of Jews today vs 100 years ago has all that much to do with Jews going to Ivy League schools and other elites, given that the vast majority of people in this country don’t particularly give a darn about elite schools in the first place.</p>

[johnwesley]

<p>

Several pages back, I told Shrinkrap a bit about “me.” Half my high school was black my senior year, and almost half (of the school) qualified for “free or reduced lunch.” I had many black friends and acquaintances, but few were middle-class. That could be because I went to a public high school in rural South Georgia. I am not from Atlanta, which is probably the home of most of the middle-class black families in Georgia.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Well, only in the world of affirmative action threads would twenty pages translate as, “several pages back.” But, be that as it may, thank you for clarifying things. </p>

<p>

I don’t think any of my black classmates applied “higher” than the University of Georgia, and in that regard, they were no different from our white classmates. Most of the student body was more than content to attend UGA or Georgia Southern, with the STEM-minded going to Georgia Tech; I did not go to a high school where most of the student body had their sights on “HYPSM et al.”

</p>

<p>I still detect a certain disdain for middle-class blacks and blacks who harbor pretensions to a “higher” station in life, or, at least, a station that doesn’t include the part of Georgia where they grew up.</p>

<p>

Thanks for confirming that like Pizzagirl, you have a stereotype about the South with respect to racial relations. I’ve never said the South is perfect. It’s not; I know racism still exists because I’ve experienced it.

</p>

<p>I don’t think that’s necessarily a stereotype, but, something right out of the rural South playbook, and, something I’m very familiar with. Ninety-percent of my own family lives in the rural south. Rural people tend to be suspicious of middle-class pretentions in general; I don’t even think that the finer class distinctions enter into their minds at all; people are either rich or they’re poor, but, my suspicion is that even poor blacks come down a little harder on “rich” blacks.</p>

[epiphany]

<p>

But it seems correct. Only 25% of enrolled students are above the middle range. If all the students above the middle range are unhooked, then 75% of the unhooked are in the middle range!

</p>

<p>If one is looking only at numerical measures, yes. But which person who is not new to this thinks this is all about numerical ranges? Most people understand how long it has been true that scores & grades are only 2 of between 7 and 11 Important-to-Very-Important factors for admission. Not a secret. On the Common Data Sets in black and white.</p>

[mokusatsu]

<p>

Moreover, there is ample evidence that |
…
b) Asians disproportionately apply to a more concentrated list of schools, the UC’s and the Ivy League / other top schools among them, especially because few of them are “siphoned off” by living in Big 10 country as many whites would be, or “siphoned off” by HBCU’s as blacks would be)

I missed this ample evidence. Could you link to it again, please?

</p>

<p>[This</a> article](<a href=“http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2006/10/10/asian]This”>http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2006/10/10/asian) states: "At the same time, he and others said that part of the problem in admissions today is created by Asian applicants – and especially their parents – who tend to accept only certain colleges as legitimate options.”</p>

[Shrinkrap]

<p>"My observations would be a whole course in looking at how racial differences are handled or ignored, and to what effect. Different cultures handle things like immigrants, foreign language speakers, practicers of minority religions, women, those with different skin colors, unexpected sexual orientation, the handicapped very differently at all levels (citizenship, voting rights, school access, education systems, pedagogic approaches, taxes…). Each scenario is different from top to bottom and historically, so nothing is absolutely comparable, but, believe me, there are interesting patterns and effects and it is interesting to see!</p>

<p>I am not a sociologist, so my observations cannot be considered perfectly objective or systematic. But the breadth of my exposure in actual day to day experience is probably worth something. I feel very fortunate to have had this sort of “education”. And I am lucky enough to be able to be safe, healthy, and comfortable enough to even question these things, and perhaps that makes it imperative for someone in my position to do so. "</p>

<p>performersmom ; well said. I would add, that in addition to sociology, anthoplogy might also shed some light on this discussion.</p>

<p>With regard to Fab responding to my question about how where he has lived might effect his perspective, I did not mean to suggest he did not like middle class blacks. But I DID wonder if he saw so many more black people than I did, that it might be reflected in his passion for this subject. Certainly my perspective has been changed by the number of Asians I interact with here in California, so much so that the word “Asian” confuses me. What KIND of Asian, I wonder. And when I vist elsewhere, I am humbled by how much things like that must effect a young persons development. </p>

<p>I know I have made choices about where I live, that effect my children without realizing it.</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>

I still detect a certain disdain for middle-class blacks and blacks who harbor pretensions to a “higher” station in life, or, at least, a station that doesn’t include the part of Georgia where they grew up.

</p>

<p>I do not believe any racial classification has a “place” in life. Please let me know exactly which words or phrases I used led you to “still detect a certain disdain.”</p>

<p>

[This</a> article](<a href=“http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2006/10/10/asian]This”>http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2006/10/10/asian) states: "At the same time, he and others said that part of the problem in admissions today is created by Asian applicants – and especially their parents – who tend to accept only certain colleges as legitimate options.”

</p>

<p>I take it, then, that your using the Inside Higher Ed article I linked to earlier as “ample evidence” allows me to do the same?</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>"At the same time, he and others said that part of the problem in admissions today is created by Asian applicants – and especially their parents – who tend to accept only certain colleges as legitimate options.” </p>

<p>fab, if you can’t recognize that there are a thousand and one threads on CC from young Asian / Asian-American high school students, expressing parental insistence that they apply mostly or only to Ivy League schools, dismay that they have let their parents down by “only” getting into Brown or Cornell and not HYP, the fear that they are failures since they haven’t gotten to the tippy-tops, embarrassment for having let the family down, detailing that everyone-back-in-the-old-country has an opinion on where they should go or have been accepted … Then you simply aren’t paying attention or acting in good faith.</p>

<p>Note the comment above about “worshipping at the church of UC Berkeley” in Korea. That’s part of the problem, you know. This very literal insistence that only a handful of schools will determine success and if you don’t get into those schools, your chances for upper middle class success are pretty much doomed. </p>

<p>YK, I’m really sorry that it’s hard for people to break the cultural habits they grew up with, but I’m also really sorry that it seems that the more acculturated / assimilated crowd really should let their more newly arrived brethren know that it isn’t like that here, there is no need to worship at the altar of ANY school, and just because people in the old country haven’t heard of certain schools doesn’t mean anything at all about what it takes to be successful in the US.</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>Pizzagirl, since you’ve asserted that Asians have “a hard time really understanding how we here in the US in the year 2011 value diversity,” mind answering my questions?</p>

<p>Do you know the racial composition of your area’s public schools? And did you send your kids there?</p>

[texaspg]

<p>Bovertine - I will take Texas pizzaGUY for a couple of hundred pizzas. They are my initials but I do love pizza too.</p>

<p>If it makes any difference at all to anyone on this forum, Harvard lumps Asians under minorities. What actually surprised me was that they do recruitment of Asians as minorities and try to get them to apply. </p>

<p>[Harvard</a> College Admissions § Applying: Minority Recruitment](<a href=“http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/apply/hrp/minority_recruitment/index.html]Harvard”>http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/apply/hrp/minority_recruitment/index.html)</p>

<p>My kid got a personal email from a student working in that office today asking to apply and also correspond, call etc with any questions. Apparently, they did know the kid was Asian American and not Hispanic (our last name can easily be mistaken that way).</p>

<p>Fabrizzio - I have noticed from the past discussions with Pizzagirl that her kids went to a public school. I remember arguing about how no adcoms showed up near there while I assumed they showed up at most public schools based on my kid’s school.</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>

fab, if you can’t recognize that there are a thousand and one threads on CC from young Asian / Asian-American high school students, expressing parental insistence that they apply mostly or only to Ivy League schools, dismay that they have let their parents down by “only” getting into Brown or Cornell and not HYP, the fear that they are failures since they haven’t gotten to the tippy-tops, embarrassment for having let the family down, detailing that everyone-back-in-the-old-country has an opinion on where they should go or have been accepted … Then you simply aren’t paying attention or acting in good faith.

</p>

<p>siserune linked to a reputable source (*.gov) stating that Asians are twice as likely as non-Asians to pursue STEM fields. That’s “ample evidence.”</p>

<p>You’re talking about CC threads. I question whether that’s “ample evidence.” But hey, if CC threads count as “ample evidence” that Asians fixate on “HYSPM et al,” then I guess CC threads can also be used to “prove” that the answer to this thread’s titular question is ‘yes.’</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

If it makes any difference at all to anyone on this forum, Harvard lumps Asians under minorities. What actually surprised me was that they do recruitment of Asians as minorities and try to get them to apply.

</p>

<p>That’s because they hate them so, and they really consider them undesirable, and only really tolerate them because they have to please white liberals. /sarcasm </p>

<p>

Pizzagirl, since you’ve asserted that Asians have “a hard time really understanding how we here in the US in the year 2011 value diversity,” mind answering my questions?</p>

<p>Do you know the racial composition of your area’s public schools? And did you send your kids there?

</p>

<p>Yes, my children attended our town’s public schools, which serve a mostly middle to upper middle class area. It’s predominantly white. The town / high school one suburb over, which is wealthier than mine, happens to have a much stronger Asian (both South and East) presence as well. (Good for them!) </p>

<p>Having said that, a) my personal choices are not germane to this thread, and
b) I look for different things when choosing a college versus choosing a high school. So if you think this is some kind of “gotcha - how come you didn’t move to the 'hood if you want diversity so much?” I’m afraid it falls quite flat.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

I question whether that’s “ample evidence.” But hey, if CC threads count as “ample evidence” that Asians fixate on “HYSPM et al,” then I guess CC threads can also be used to “prove” that the answer to this thread’s titular question is ‘yes.’

</p>

<p>No, because “a bunch of Asians on CC think that colleges are racist / discriminatory” does not serve as proof that indeed colleges are racist / discriminatory. Suspicions among a bunch of disappointed high-scoring high schoolers merely prove that there are suspicions among a bunch of disappoitned high-scoring high schoolers.</p>

[Hunt]

<p>

I take it, then, that your using the Inside Higher Ed article I linked to earlier as “ample evidence” allows me to do the same?

He’s pointing out that even the article that you are relying on explains some of the things that might cut against the conclusion that you seem to be arguing for. But I’m still a bit curious, fabrizio–do you, in fact, believe that the elite schools are discriminating against Asians based on race alone? That’s a yes or no question.</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>

With regard to Fab responding to my question about how where he has lived might effect his perspective, I did not mean to suggest he did not like middle class blacks. But I DID wonder if he saw so many more black people than I did, that it might be reflected in his passion for this subject.

</p>

<p>And while it can get heated between us, too, I’ve never felt that your questions were asked with the intention of “trapping” me and getting me to betray my alleged prejudices against certain “groups.”</p>

<p>Many, MANY pages back, I made a comment about Hispanics and racial preferences which was miscontrued because I worded my post extremely poorly. Some parents called me out on it but let me reword my post. I did so, and while they may not have agreed with my views, they accepted my rewording and retracted their claims.</p>

<p>If johnwesley or anyone else thinks my posts demonstrate animus against blacks, Jews, or any other “group,” I welcome them to point out which words or phrases I use that leads them to feel that way. Maybe I am phrasing my posts poorly, but how will I know if the suspect words/phrases are not brought to my attention?</p>

[epiphany]

<p>Whoops, I posted, then a post seemed to disappear, so I’ll re-post.</p>

<p>

Note the comment above about “worshipping at the church of UC Berkeley” in Korea.

</p>

<p>That was the temple, not the church. ;)</p>

<p>I do think it’s terrific that a great public U gets the attention it deserves, including internationally! (My earlier point was to emphasize that it’s not some great perceived “loss” to attend Berkeley.) :)</p>

[texaspg]

<p>“That’s because they hate them so, and they really consider them undesirable, and only really tolerate them because they have to please white liberals.”</p>

<p>If this is true, it would actually work out very well. I will ask my kid to write about all the pain and suffering to play on the white guilt! Now we are getting somewhere.</p>

[soomoo]

<p>

No, it is not that the bar is higher for Asians. It is that the overall pool of Asians has higher scores than whites and whites in turn higher scores than blacks, so if you pull from a higher-score pool you’re going to have … ta da … higher scores

</p>

<p>PG…Are you saying then that Asians are competing against other Asians only? I don’t think this is your position in this debate, but this statement implies that.</p>

[collegealum314]

<p>

fab, if you can’t recognize that there are a thousand and one threads on CC from young Asian / Asian-American high school students, expressing parental insistence that they apply mostly or only to Ivy League schools, dismay that they have let their parents down by “only” getting into Brown or Cornell and not HYP, the fear that they are failures since they haven’t gotten to the tippy-tops, embarrassment for having let the family down, detailing that everyone-back-in-the-old-country has an opinion on where they should go or have been accepted … Then you simply aren’t paying attention or acting in good faith.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>How is this relevant to this thread?</p>

<p>Are you saying that since the choice between attending a state flagship and HYP should not limit one’s career achievements, then it doesn’t really matter how people are sorted to the various colleges? In other words, the collection of universities in the country are like sections in an airplane. The ivies are first class, other top 20 schools like Northwestern are business class, and the state flagships are coach; some are more prestigious than others, but they all get you to the same career destination. Is this analogy an accurate representation of your views, Pizzagirl?</p>

[mokusatsu]

<p>

I take it, then, that your using the Inside Higher Ed article I linked to earlier as “ample evidence” allows me to do the same?

Did I say the article was “ample evidence”?</p>