are colleges racist?

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

“Starting in the fall of 1922,” Karabel writes, “applicants were required to answer questions on ‘Race and Color,’ ‘Religious Preference,’ ‘Maiden Name of Mother,’ ‘Birthplace of Father,’ and ‘What change, if any, has been made since birth in your own name or that of your father? (Explain fully).’”</p>

<p>Gee, with questions like RELIGIOUS PREFERENCE, how could they not have discriminated against Jews?

</p>

<p>Don’t be coy. Even if the person hadn’t indicated anything for religious preference, what do you THINK “maiden name of mother,” “birthplace of father,” and “has your name changed” was trying to get at? Do you think “Goldenberg,” “Warsaw, Poland,” and “name used to be Slowinski til we changed it to Sloan” wouldn’t signal something?</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

It is my observation that Chinese parents, especially those who are immigrant parents who are professionals, impose a substantial degree of conformity on their kids when it comes to studies and activities… </p>

<p>So you believe that the Chinese as a group, especially those who are immigrants, does not value innovation and “thinking out of the box”?

</p>

<p>What part of Hunt’s statement wasn’t clear? Do you think that the Amy Chua “you WILL study piano and violin and only those things – no school play for you” was a unique aberration, specific only to her? Good grief, after that book came out, how many editorials did you see where Chinese-American young adults said things along the line of, “And that’s how my parents raised me too.” Some of them went on to say “And I appreciated it” and others went on to say “And that’s why I spent years in therapy and barely talk to my parents today,” but nonetheless, it’s pretty hard to argue that there isn’t some truth to the stereotype.</p>

<p>But go ahead and pretend that there are no differences.</p>

<p>Most stereotypes – of ANYONE – have a kernel of truth behind them.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>Repeated below are the top 30 or so LAC’s. </p>

<p>If an Asian student looked at this list and didn’t figure out that being Asian could potentially be a positive factor at basically all of the schools on here except for maybe 4 or so (Swat, Wellesley, CMcK and Harvey Mudd) … well, then I don’t care if this person got a 2400 on his SAT’s, is valedictorian and won Intel and whatever math olympiads all the math nerds drool over … he’s just not all that bright. Part of being bright is being clever. </p>

<p>Amherst 11%
Swarthmore 15%
Middlebury 5%
Wellesley 22%
Bowdoin 7%
Pomona 11%
Carleton 7%
Davidson 6%
Haverford 6%
Claremont McKenna 13%
Vassar 9%
Wesleyan U 6%
Smith 12%
Washington and Lee 2%
West Point 6%
US Naval Academy 4%
Grinnell 7%
Hamilton 8%
Harvey Mudd 22%
Bates 4%
Colgate 3%
Colby 6%
Oberlin 4%
Scripps 10%
Barnard 19%
Colorado C 3%
Macalester 5%
Mt Holyoke 6%
Bryn Mawr 12%
Bucknell 3%
C of Holy Cross 4%
Kenyon 5%</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>

I might then go make special efforts to court Asian-American students – make sure I hit up California on my tours, make sure I offered specific welcoming programs for Asian accepted students, ensured that I had clubs and student associations that were culturally relevant, and so forth.

</p>

<p>Continuing your “If I were…,”</p>

<p>If you felt you didn’t have “enough” Asians, I’m fine with your courting them by sending them letters encouraging them to apply and touring high schools. That was one reason why I applied to Washington & Lee; they sent me a letter encouraging me to apply for their scholarships. Specific welcoming programs…not so much; I’m not a big fan of that concept. If we’re going to be classmates, ALL of us should be together, not separate. And as for clubs, I feel you don’t need to worry about that; they will be started by students themselves.</p>

<p>So yeah, in general, I am for outreach. If you want to encourage more [insert “group” here] students to apply, go for it. If you want to make an effort to say, “I would value your presence,” great. But their applications should not receive any preferential treatment in the REVIEW.</p>

[NCL]

<p>@Pizzagirl, Re: 2622</p>

<p>You are on my IGNORE List for a reason.</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>

Don’t be coy. Even if the person hadn’t indicated anything for religious preference, what do you THINK “maiden name of mother,” “birthplace of father,” and “has your name changed” was trying to get at? Do you think “Goldenberg,” “Warsaw, Poland,” and “name used to be Slowinski til we changed it to Sloan” wouldn’t signal something?

</p>

<p>This gets back to a post made pages ago by mokusatsu about the “family” section in the Common App. The “birthplace of father/mother” still exists, but I didn’t see “maiden name of mother.” (“Former last names, if any” is also still there.) Now, I know that you can decline to self-identify, but I don’t know if it’s also true for the “family” section. The Common App does say that it’s collected for “demographic purposes”…</p>

<p>But this also gets back to my suggestion about a unique identifier. I believe that can handle these legitimate problems you and Hunt raised.</p>

[texaspg]

<p>20more - As I have stated before (and you from personal admissions experience don’t believe so), I don’t believe Asians are being discriminated against.</p>

<p>However, with no representation among adcoms, there is no voice saying yes, textureless drones are acceptable because we need more of them in this college when some people are being taken out of consideration. So if your generation wants to do something about it, it is time for some of you who are in these colleges do an year or two as adcoms just to provide the different perspective needed.</p>

[sewhappy]

<p>

If an Asian student looked at this list and didn’t figure out that being Asian could potentially be a positive factor at basically all of the schools on here except for maybe 4 or so (Swat, Wellesley, CMcK and Harvey Mudd) … well, then I don’t care if this person got a 2400 on his SAT’s, is valedictorian and won Intel and whatever math olympiads all the math nerds drool over … he’s just not all that bright. Part of being bright is being clever.

</p>

<p>And presumable “clever” enough to know their place and not be so “uppity”?</p>

<p>I may have to put you on ignore, as well.</p>

[collegealum314]

<p>

well, then I don’t care if this person got a 2400 on his SAT’s, is valedictorian and won Intel and whatever math olympiads all the math nerds drool over … he’s just not all that bright. Part of being bright is being clever

</p>

<p>Priceless.</p>

[bovertine]

<p>

@Pizzagirl, Re: 2622</p>

<p>You are on my IGNORE List for a reason.

</p>

<p>If somebody is on your ignore list, I thought that meant you didn’t see their posts.</p>

<p>Since I’ve never used it I don’t know how it works. If you can still read their posts, what’s the point?</p>

[frazzled2thecore]

<p>I think you can see posts by someone on “ignore” if they are being quoted by someone else in a response.</p>

[bovertine]

<p>

I think you can see posts by someone on “ignore” if they are being quoted by someone else in a response.

I thought about that but I don’t see a quote. Plus, I’ll add, referencing a post and pointing out that you are ignoring someone doesn’t seem much like ignoring to me.</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

Candidate X: 2300 SAT I, 740 Latin SAT 2, 750 Biology SAT 2. GPA 4.0. ECs: Model Rocketry Club, Poetry Club, Editor school literary magazine. Collects rubbings of manhole covers.
Essay: Was about raising goats. Sample quote from teacher rec: “Has a quick and unpredicatable mind. You never know what he will come up with next.”</p>

<p>Candidate Y: 2380 SAT I, 800 Math Level 2 SAT 2, 770 US History Math Level 2, 4.0 GPA. ECs: Violin (All-State 10, 11, 12), Tennis team, President Science Club, tutoring. Essay was about summer research internship. Sample quote from teacher rec: “One of the brightest students I’ve ever taught. Works very hard and is always well-prepared. Excellent writer.”

</p>

<p>I would take candidate Y in a second, if (s)he was interviewing at my place of work (which is very, very far away from STEM). The essay about raising goats and manhole covers would take candidate X out in a flash. I couldn’t put someone unpredictable like that in front of a client, or in any business situation per se.</p>

<p>But that is neither here nor there. My question now is this, if you agree that everyone should get a fair shot based on caliber, why are you OK with overpresenting URMs with disregard to caliber?</p>

[epiphany]

<p>

Finally, I think just the topic of the essays is not enough to go on.

</p>

<p>I’m sorry I missed that. Someone said that the entire college admissions decisions to an elite college is based on the personal essay? Not that the essay contributed to the composite impression of the candidate, but that it was the only differentiating factor, and only because it was interesting, quirky, different, rural, bucolic, an image of Pan prancing in the meadow, or maybe even Narcissus at his pond, etc. (Possibly Pan or Narcissus raising goats.) </p>

<p>And I’m sure that if anyone dares to correct this belief, they will be accused of “lecturing” the person who said that. So I promise I will do nothing to correct this utter fantasy, including “lecturing.” I’ll just let the person argue not just straw men but an entire straw city. And never mind that the institution especially branded for valuing/overvaluing The Essay is the University of Chicago, the temple at which many people on CC worship as being intellectually “superior” to the Ivies, preferring, as Chicago does, “quirky” essays, and applicants who put lots of time into their essay while admitting students with non-top test scores. </p>

<p>Importance of essay from the Common Data Sets of a few “elites”:</p>

<p>Princeton: one of 8 Very Important factors
Harvard:: “considered”
Yale: one of 9 Very Important
Stanford: one of 9 Very Important
Cornell: one of 7 Very Important
MIT: one of 8 “Important.” Only one category is Very Important: Character/personal qualities
Princeton and a few others also considers character in the V.I. category, too.
Harvard is the most opaque of all, with virtually everything “considered”, and a few items not considered.</p>

<p>

The Ivy League is producing a lot of Candidate X’s these days.

</p>

<p>Evidence? Not conjecture: Evidence.</p>

[coolweather]

<p>There is a huge difference between college acceptance and social acceptance for ethnic minority people. Often some people who don’t belong to the minority groups intentionally or unintentionally don’t see this difference. Some Asian groups may do well in college education but Asian Americans still face discrimination in life. Adcoms may favor African American students for college admission but like Asian Americans, African Americans still face discrimination in society. Everyday I still see a lot of people, including people who used to be my friends hate Obama just simply because he is black. It really hurts ethnic monorities. It’s easy for some people to promote justice, equality, opportunity,… in loud voice but it’s really hard for them to see the pain of the victims of discrimination.</p>

<p>Asian Americans are not Model Minority. This has been demonstrated in the following articles:</p>

<p>[Report</a> Takes Aim at ‘Model Minority’ Stereotype of Asian-American Students - NYTimes.com](<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/10/education/10asians.html]Report”>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/10/education/10asians.html)</p>

<p>[The</a> Model Minority Image : Asian-Nation :: Asian American History, Demographics, & Issues](<a href=“http://www.asian-nation.org/model-minority.shtml]The”>The Model Minority Image : Asian-Nation :: Asian American History, Demographics, & Issues)</p>

<p>[Unraveling</a> the Model Minority Myth of Asian American Students | Education.com](<a href=“http://www.education.com/reference/article/unraveling-minority-myth-asian-students/]Unraveling”>Education.com | #1 Educational Site for Pre-K to 8th Grade)</p>

<p>

There is a popular image of Asian American students as the “model minority.” The stereotype suggests that Asian Americans are more academically, economically, and socially successful than any other racial minority groups. Most people believe that Asian American students are more successful than other racial minority students because of their supposedly unique Asian cultural values that emphasize hard work, strong family values, and/or stronger belief in the American meritocracy (Wu, 2002). Contrary to these popular beliefs, the overly positive caricature of Asian Americans as the model minority is false. Further, this inaccurate and distorted comparison leads to adverse effects in the lives of Asian American students (Chun, 1995; Wong & Halgin, 2006).

</p>

[sewhappy]

<p>Epiphany,</p>

<p>Post #2634 is vintage epiphany. I say the essay topic “is not enough to go by” meaning it’s not enough to really judge the effectiveness of the essay, and receive a fervent lecture from Epiphany on how the essay isn’t everything! Gosh. What a revelation!</p>

[johnwesley]

<p>

But that is neither here nor there. My question now is this, if you agree that everyone should get a fair shot based on caliber, why are you OK with overpresenting URMs with disregard to caliber?

</p>

<p>WARNING: This question is so loaded it should require a hardhat before reading.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

whatever math olympiads all the math nerds drool over … he’s just not all that bright. Part of being bright is being clever. </p>

<p>And presumable “clever” enough to know their place and not be so “uppity”?

</p>

<p>What on earth are you talking about with “their place”?
Look, anyone trying to get into elite colleges has two choices. They can say,
A) “There are only a handful of elite colleges that are worth going to - those that I’ve heard of, and everybody in my family has heard of. I’m going to concentrate there and only there, and dismiss everything else.” </p>

<p>Or they can say,
B) “There are a heck of a lot of fabulous places in the country to get a great education – I’m going to go off the beaten path, look into a couple that maybe I or my parents hadn’t heard of, and if it’s a place that might want the specific characteristics I could bring to the party, well, then so much the better!”</p>

<p>B is a smarter thinking process than A. That’s all there is to it.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>" The essay about raising goats and manhole covers would take candidate X out in a flash. I couldn’t put someone unpredictable like that in front of a client, or in any business situation per se."</p>

<p>ROFL! Unexpected and unpredictable are two entirely different concepts. Nowhere has Candidate X been shown to be flighty, fly-by-the-seat-of-his-pants, etc. For all you know, it takes tremendous discipline to raise goats.</p>

<p>I guess you’re stuck in that old-school, work = discrete tasks that have a specific predetermined answer, instead of the new world, where it’s about inventing new answers to questions that haven’t been asked.</p>

[collegealum314]

<p>

ROFL! Unexpected and unpredictable are two entirely different concepts. Nowhere has Candidate X been shown to be flighty, fly-by-the-seat-of-his-pants, etc. For all you know, it takes tremendous discipline to raise goats.</p>

<p>I guess you’re stuck in that old-school, work = discrete tasks that have a specific predetermined answer, instead of the new world, where it’s about inventing new answers to questions that haven’t been asked.

</p>

<p>Goat herders think out-of-the-box.</p>

<p>They invent new answers to questions that haven’t been asked.</p>