are colleges racist?

[mokusatsu]

<p>

Suppose I’m a rich, famous, aging author who decides to create a Book Club. I want to gather promising younger writers in my home to discuss the Great American Novel (The Scarlet Letter, Moby Dick, Huckleberry Finn, The Great Gatsby). I put an add in the NYROB. I get hundreds of responses. Unfortunately, my living room (and my attention) can only accomodate 10. Among those who respond, many are serious readers sincerely interested in the topic. Some only want to see the inside of my house. A few want to date my beautiful daughter. Many more are mostly interested in my help getting their work published; they actually hate old books like Moby Dick.

Will your group discuss the use of “diversity” to include URMs as harpooneers on the Pequod? And not one Asian?</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

You’ve totally lost me here. How about “boring” or “a math grind” traits? Do those impact others? Or are they “just are,” too?

</p>

<p>Those are not traits. Those are subjective opinions, which are also insulting. Now, people should feel free to hold subjective opinions. But they shouldn’t discriminate based on such opinions when it comes to - drum roll please - college admissions.</p>

<p>One person’s math grind is another person’s math genius. One person’s boring is another person’s stimulating. I do not express such negative subjective opinions about others. What’s the point? Negativity takes a lot out of you.</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

In regards to what you quoted from IndianParent, I don’t fully agree. It’s not “Asian vs. non-Asian” parenting. More generally, it’s “immigrant vs. non-immigrant” parenting and even then, some non-immigrant Americans supported Chua’s promotion of her parenting style.

</p>

<p>May be. I do not know much of other immigrant groups, so I am not going to comment.</p>

<p>

I disagree that Asians as a whole have not assimilated well. To the contrary, I think Asians have assimilated as well as we can given that almost all Asians are visible minorities. I know from experience that some people will simply assume by default that I am a foreigner.

</p>

<p>The first generation has absolutely not assimilated. The second generation has assimilated more than the first, but not as assimilated as someone whose ancestors came here 400 years back. That’s just reality. Every single new wave of immigrants in American history took about 50-100 years to fully assimilate. Since Asians really started to arrive in the 70’s, and it really started to speed up in the 80’s and 90’s, we are in early stages here. In another 50-60 years I believe Asians would be very well assimilated regardless of looks.</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

IP - Speaking of Asian giving, a book published by Boston Globe for MIT’s 150th anniversary where they listed 150 great things to come out of MIT. Item #9 talks of Amar Bose, an MIT professor who created Bose company and donated most of his stock to MIT last month.

</p>

<p>Bose is second generation, born and brought up in the USA, and half-Caucasian. First generation Asians simply don’t give much. Let me ask you this - how much do you give to your schools?</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

I’d like to do my part in developing the next generation of leaders in my field, but my main interest is in stimulating conversation about the Great American Novel.

</p>

<p>When I interview people for a job, I interview everyone and assess everyone’s potential the same. </p>

<p>Two totally different things. You can do whatever you want in your private life.</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

I don’t see the US legislating morality in this case. Private businesses (including colleges) are generally given a hands-off approach by the federal govt regarding their business decisions, which allows them to remain competitive by creating their own unique consumer niches. This is the American way and maybe one not easily understood by foreigners.

</p>

<p>Private business do not have the legal right to discriminate based on race. Where did you get this idea from? Don’t try that openly at work. The result won’t be good. Hide it under some other criteria that is hard to measure - like lack of leadership potential - which is what has been used to keep Asians out of management ranks by and large. The colleges do the same, follow them. don’t think that the US Govt would be OK if you just go and start to openly discriminate based on race, as you think that the Govt has pretty much written private institutions a blank check. It hasn’t.</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

So, outright statements that it exists are incorrect. But I would submit that it is also incorrect to state conclusively is does NOT exist, for sure.

</p>

<p>I have repeatedly offered a simple solution. If there is no racial discrimination, let’s make racial discrimination illegal in college admissions. Then, let’s see if the class composition changes. If it doesn’t, then surely there was no racial discrimination before, and the law is immaterial, so it can stay. If it does, there was discrimination before and the law should stay. Either way, the law stays, and then let the chips fall where they may.</p>

<p>Can someone please tell me what is wrong with my proposal? How can one be afraid of an anti-discriminatory law, while also claiming that there is no discrimination anyway?</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>Thank you gentle folks for proving the names of so many great coleges where the quality of education is as good or better than HYPSM. Now, my next question is, how does the career and income prospects post graduation compare between these schools and HYPSM. If they are the same, then I stand corrected. If not, I am curious how the education can be better, but the rewards can be worse.</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

My sense from his posts is that IP does not mind racism or being labelled in any way. Since he thinks in terms of racial groupings, he assumes that others do, too. But since he understands that the practice of discrimination by race is illegal here, and since he feels his group is being discriminated against, he is blowing the whistle, using US law, but maybe without the data necessary to "prove"it. So his stance is not antiAA per se. He is just showing his belief that the group qualities of Asians may be in DISfavor with AdComms of certain elite collges, esp HYSM, here.
It is a little like, hey I do not mind racism until it hurts me or my group, but he DOES have the legal card to play since it is about discrimination. And if Asians were BENEFITTING from discriminatory or racist practices, would be complaining?

</p>

<p>Not my position at all. It is true I don’t mind being labeled. It doesn’t hurt me. But I do mind racism, which to me is acting on those labels and discriminating. That hurts me. Put in another way, I don’t mind if my next door neighbour hates my guts and complains about me all day long to his friends, as long as he is not urinating in my front yard or poisoning my dog.</p>

<p>Now, I want this right to not be discriminated against for all races. I am seeking no special favor for Asians. I am just asking for objective rules that treats everyone the same regardless of race. I know that in such a situation meritocracy rules, and Asians will either do well or not (I personally think they will do very well), but they will be justly rewarded, or punished. Can’t complain against that.</p>

<p>That said, as a liberal, I do want one specific thumb on the scale - for the poor (and regardless of race). Not in admissions, but in investments to education and employment. I am a huge fan of AFDC, EITC, job trainings, career counseling, even protected jobs for the poor, living wage, Medicaid, special funding for poorer school districts, even private schools fully paid for by the Govt for smart but poor kids. (Of course, smartness has to be measured objectively and not by race.) If I were king, I would steeply raise taxes on the rich, and use it to fund education and employment for the poor.</p>

<p>Now, I know that even then many smart, poor kids will not be able to make it, as the home culture is hard to change. There, as a libertarian, I will just have to accept the reality, that there is no way to make life fair without interfering with personal lives, and interfering with personal lives is never OK, so life will never be fair.</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

It seems to feel like that of an outsider striving for acceptance, but applying the biases from his culture.

</p>

<p>I have been in this country for more than two decades. Not looking for acceptance, just equal treatment.</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

IP-
I have a basic question for you.
What is the purpose of a college education, to you?</p>

<p>Do you see it mainly as a source of economic upward mobility?</p>

<p>A “branding” of acceptance into the American elite?
A filter for the brightest?</p>

<p>A place to network?
To meet new people?
To learn?
To share and learn new ideas and skills?

</p>

<p>A filter for the ones with most merit (objectively defined), and a place to network.</p>

[texaspg]

<p>“Bose is second generation, born and brought up in the USA, and half-Caucasian. First generation Asians simply don’t give much. Let me ask you this - how much do you give to your schools?”</p>

<p>And it does nt make him an Asian with an Asian last name? </p>

<p>How much have you given? It sounds like you are rich and I have nt gotten there yet.</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

I have no quibble with what you have written about Asians; it is free speech and I think all opinions are valid. We are merely pointing out to those readers who imply that it is the pro-AA side who is impugning Asians that they are wrong.

</p>

<p>Frankly, I don’t worry about the people on this forum who may or may not be impugning Asians. They can cause little if any harm to Asians. I care about the AdComs.</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

How much have you given? It sounds like you are rich and I have nt gotten there yet.

</p>

<p>I only started giving after graduating from Biz School. There was an open and concerted effort to raise money from alumni. I initially thought, what is this? I paid tuition already. Then I realized that it is a means to buy access down the line for your progeny, and started giving. Substantial by my standards, minuscule by Bose’s standards. Now imagine if all the Asians gave? Colleges would sit up and take notice!</p>

<p>I implore all Asians who went to an US school to give whatever you can to that school. It sets a precedence and buys your kids’ future. You owe it to your kids. It may not be your kid who would benefit, but Asian kids as a group would.</p>

<p>My point about Bose is this - the second generation in my experience gives much more than the first. The first generation has to do its part as well.</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

I’m uncomfortable with it, too; but, that is where the thread has taken us. There are posters who claim to be either Asian or South Asian who embrace the stereotype and argue simultaneously that 1) it is within their rights to both embrace the stereotype of the Tiger Mom/violin playing Math drone (who btw, also know by age 17 that they want to be investment bankers) and, 2) protest mightily when a select few universities don’t fill their seats to the brim with people matching those exact same qualities. That’s my understanding of the state of play up to this moment.

</p>

<p>No thread can take anyone anywhere. People are supposed to have their own internal compass.</p>

<p>What I don’t get is this. On one hand, people argue vehemently that kids do know at 17 whether they want to go for STEM, or goatherding, and colleges are right to smoke out the non-goatherding crowd. Yet, if a kid knows at 17 that (s)he wants to be an investment banker, that’s sacrilege. Can you guys please make up your mind as to whether a kid knows anything about his/her future career at 17?</p>

<p>Anyway, as for the Tiger Mom issue, you don’t have to follow her, but if her style produces a brilliant pianist (which apparently it did) then you can’t complain about how such brilliance is not authentic.</p>

<p>What’s authentic anyway in the USA? It seems that people want to rail on Asians for being conformists. Yet, all around me, I see kids who wear the same clothes, listen to the same music, play the same sports, read (or, likely not read) the same books, watch the same movies, and they are the non-conformist ones because they didn’t get an A? Wow, that sure makes being a non-conformist super easy. It’s like the ad says, this summer show your individuality by buying the same mass made designer clothes that everyone else is wearing.</p>

<p>Someone posted a link to another thread where an MIT kid was urging high school kids to show that they take risks, by choosing some off the wall course where they were not guaranteed to get an A. It gave me a good chuckle. The Palestinian kids who storm Israeli armored vehicles with stones take real risks. Our standards for everything - education, risk taking, conformity - have been lowered so much that our kids - and us - can make these kind of immature statements and get standing ovation.</p>

[texaspg]

<p>My kids don’t want access to the public schools i went to in US!</p>

<p>I won’t be so sure about the statement about first generation since it is a matter of attachment where the giving goes. It is a given that most students are attached to the schools they went to through undergrad and that is where most of their money goes. I have seen lots of people raise money for alma maters back in their original home countries even if they don’t do it for their graduate schools.</p>

[poetsheart]

<p>

e second generation has assimilated more than the first, but not as assimilated as someone whose ancestors came here 400 years back. That’s just reality. Every single new wave of immigrants in American history took about 50-100 years to fully assimilate. Since Asians really started to arrive in the 70’s, and it really started to speed up in the 80’s and 90’s, we are in early stages here. In another 50-60 years I believe Asians would be very well assimilated regardless of looks.

</p>

<p>I always find the term “assimilation” to be ambiguous/confusing—or more accurately, assumptive. What (exactly) does it mean to Assimilate? To whom (or what) does one assimilate in the context of this conversation?</p>

[performersmom]

<p>That is a great question, poetsheart!</p>

<p>“Assimilation” certainly presumes a dominant culture whereby an outsider somehow adopts aspects of it to belong or conform or seem less different or agin acceptance…
It can occur over generations. </p>

<p>In my melting pot post, I was alluding to the fact that American culture is more a of two-way street with newcomers and their cultures. We do absorb aspects of others’ cultures; simultaneously, newcomer adopts aspects of this local culture.</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>Hating STEM is the first step towards assimilation. Switching from piano/violin to starting a rock band is the second step. The most assimilated, however, specialize in goatherding and collecting manhole covers.</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

I won’t be so sure about the statement about first generation since it is a matter of attachment where the giving goes. It is a given that most students are attached to the schools they went to through undergrad and that is where most of their money goes. I have seen lots of people raise money for alma maters back in their original home countries even if they don’t do it for their graduate schools.

</p>

<p>I hope they are planning to send their kids to the same home country colleges. If not, they better change tune.</p>