are colleges racist?

[Shrinkrap]

<p>Bookmarked at 3615…will I ever catch up?</p>

[johnwesley]

<p>

xiggi, Bay, others seem to be survivors of past threads on the topic. Is this one excruciatingly generic or perhaps coming in for a somewhat softer landing?

</p>

<p>a somewhat softer landing. I confess I couldn’t understand fabrizio’s tenacity many months ago on a similar thread. And, then I realized a lot of people admired his dedication and seemed to learn something from the aggravated Socratic method that he and others adopted in that and subsequent threads. What I’ve learned is that you can’t take for granted the degree to which even the most assimilated minority might stll feel aggrieved. The Wesleyan Psi U chapter which is nearly 50% Asia – er, immigrant, the a capella groups which seem to always include at least one, um, immigrant, the glowing inter-racial couples in the NYTimes wedding announcements – are apparently masking a seething rage about which I knew nothing.</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>

What I’ve learned is that you can’t take for granted the degree to which even the most assimilated minority might stll feel aggrieved. The Wesleyan Psi U chapter which is nearly 50% Asia – er, immigrant, the a capella groups which seem to always include at least one, um, immigrant, the glowing inter-racial couples in the NYTimes wedding announcements – are apparently masking a seething rage about which I knew nothing.

</p>

<p>I wouldn’t go so far as to call it a “seething rage.” Pizzagirl actually did put it best when she referred to it as an “annoyance.”</p>

<p>It annoys me that whenever a school is described as “too Asian,” the comment is brushed off with something like, “Well, HBCUs are too black for me, and Brandeis is too Jewish.” There are no HACUs, and the schools that are pegged as “too Asian” are nonsectarian. What’s more, percentage-wise, none of the “too Asian” schools has as many Asians as the HBCUs have blacks.</p>

<p>For the record, I have issues with the positive “model minority” stereotypes about Asians, and I try to avoid them. Nevertheless, it annoys me that negative stereotypes about Asians are thrown around so casually and when questioned, are dismissed with defiance, redirects, or responses like “Are you upset because the stereotype is true?” I don’t recall any negative stereotypes about "URM"s on this thread. Apparently, we know they’re all false, but the ones for Asians are not. (To clarify, a redirect would be something like what Hunt said pages ago: bringing up a stereotype about "URM"s that has nothing to do with the context of this thread.)</p>

[xiggi]

<p>

xiggi, Bay, others seem to be survivors of past threads on the topic. Is this one excruciatingly generic or perhaps coming in for a somewhat softer landing?

</p>

<p>This thread has been a bit more interesting than the typical thread on the same subject. Fwiw, I usually wait a long time before starting to participate. I always hope to FINALLY see an argument that could support the repetitive (and to this date totally unsupported) allegations of discrimination. </p>

<p>I really do not think the nature (and outcome) of this type of threads will ever change. Nor the fact that they will come up with great regularity at the end of all admissions cycles.</p>

[Bay]

<p>

Bookmarked at 3615…will I ever catch up?

</p>

<p>Shrinkrap,
I think you’ve participated in enough of these threads to already know what was said, so don’t bother reading it all! Nothing particularly novel, but it is always interesting to hear new perspectives.</p>

[limabeans01]

<p>

I wouldn’t go so far as to call it a “seething rage.” Pizzagirl actually did put it best when she referred to it as an “annoyance.”

</p>

<p>I think this “annoyance” you all feel will go away on its own as the younger generation doesn’t seem to put people into categories like older generations tend to do. The gay population is one that comes to mind. There were a lot of kids at my HS that “came out” and other students didn’t seem to mind so much. I don’t think that attitude was the same for the majority of the parents on this thread.</p>

[Shrinkrap]

<p>“Shrinkrap,
I think you’ve participated in enough of these threads to already know what was said, so don’t bother reading it all! Nothing particularly novel”</p>

<p>Kay, thanks! </p>

<p>Picked a bushel of nectarines from my tree; they are great, but can’t keep up with them either…</p>

[mathmom]

<p>sewhappy, my younger son who got a 3 on the Calc BC exam (and a 4 on the AB portion of it) only got a 610 on the Math 2 subject test. (This was also much lower than his regular SAT math score.) He’s just not very fast at math. He took Lit and got a much, much better score.</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>White flight.</p>

<p>[The</a> Wall Street Journal Classroom Edition](<a href=“http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/teen/teencenter/05nov_whiteflight.htm]The”>http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/teen/teencenter/05nov_whiteflight.htm)</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

apparently masking a seething rage about which I knew nothing.

</p>

<p>Now you know.</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

White, Caucasian, Latino, Hispanic and Black are not associated with any particular geographic location

</p>

<p>Would you prefer yellow or brown instead of Asians?</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

Page 28 of the paper shows, for males who entered college in 1982, career incomes of $2,904,332 for graduates of “Rank 1 Colleges” and $2,602,639 for graduates of “Rank 2 Colleges” (1997 dollars). That suggests an advantage of about 12% from “moving up” from Rank 2 Colleges (which in her data included Bennington and St. John’s College) to Rank 1 Colleges. Even a move from Rank 5 colleges to Rank 1 colleges only yields an advantage of about 22% (from $2,380,857 at R5 to $2,904,332 at R1). Rank 5 colleges are described as schools that “consider applicants who have grade point averages of B- at least and who rank in the top 50% of their graduating class”. These were less selective than R4 colleges, which in her data sets included Connecticut College, Pitzer, Coe College, and Hampshire.

</p>

<p>I am amazed by these numbers, frankly. This indicates less than $65k/year on average annual earnings for most schools, or less than $35/hour. The first thought that came to my mind after reading this was - whoa! Why are people even going to colleges then? Why are they not becoming, say, plumbers or electricians or a union worker in a auto company? To put this in context, in 1983, Michael Lewis was making $200k (in 1983 dollars, mind you) at the then Solomon Brothers, by trading bonds. </p>

<p>What am I missing here?</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

As Mugatu said, “I feel like I’m taking crazy pills!”</p>

<p>Wasn’t it you who claimed that with the admissions process you prescribe, HYPS will be at least 50% Asian?? That is why I used that number, because I was describing how I interpreted your vision for the process. I am regurgitating what I remember YOU either implying or outright stating on this thread.</p>

<p>But once again, I get the feeling that you are really just trying to avoid my question.

</p>

<p>Hmm, I don’t recall ever saying that a 50% Asian class would imply one with insufferable prima donnas, without linguistic, or even English skills, and significant personal hygiene issues. </p>

<p>Did I, Bay? I think you made that up my friend, and that’s what I found racist. That you assign such a racist statement to me is cute, however.</p>

<p>As for the rest</p>

<p>

Based on your responses to my posts, it sounds like you are saying that private colleges, specifically HYPS, should be prevented from using subjective factors like opinions, or race as a factor in admissions, even though they are legally entitled to do so. They must “let the chips fall where they may,” which will result in a class composed 50% of conformists who do not assimilate well and will not donate, but who will perform just as well in life

</p>

<p>I think the above would be fine, unless the schools are dying for donations, in which case they should just up the tuition, or come out into the open to proclaim that while they don’t want the students to be money-hungry, they themselves reserve the right to be money-hungry however. </p>

<p>The assimilation and the conformist angles are totally non-issues, which I have already stated.</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

And you can extend the cynicism even to Olympiad. How many kids who make it very far in that esteemed contest did not get tutored heavily in math and/or science from avery tender age? We’ve had three come thru our old high school (and yes, all Asian) and my kids were quite good friends with one of them and his parents were very frank that the boy worked enormous hours every week getting prepped for Olympiad.</p>

<p>is this bad? I dunno. Olympic athlete kids do the same and we glorify that.

</p>

<p>Hypocritical, isn’t it?</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

You know what? If you think you can anticipate what will grab a Harvard adcom’s attention in any given year, I say, go for it. May the best liars win!

</p>

<p>Oh, I don’t. But plenty of people who claim that AdComs are not racists and in fact want something very specific that Asian kids fail to offer do think so. It’s all about goatherding and collecting manhole covers. Oh, and I forgot another thing. You need to say completely random things so that no one ever knows what you are going to say next.</p>

<p>Right, xiggi?</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

For the few tigered Asian kids I know, their parents have chosen their EC’s, the classes they take in HS, and WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO MAJOR IN (yuk!). The kids are resigned to do as their parents wish. I know this is anecdotal but I do think their is a grain of truth to it.</p>

<p>IP (or any other Asian parents/students): Is it true that the tiger parents will pick out their child’s major? If this is true then how can IP even begin to answer the above question truthfully that tigered kids “don’t know” what they want to be when they grow up? Maybe they don’t know what they want to be BUT they do know what they are going to be.

</p>

<p>The highlighted part answers your own question.</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

That is the point. HYPS are private colleges who want to pick and choose their students based on a whole host of factors, including whether they can goatherd, add to racial diversity, speak English or pick their noses in front of an interviewer. There is nothing unlawful, immoral, or otherwise wrong with a private business making these types of decisions about whom they would like to admit, and they do it because they believe that it will make their universities better than those which do not do it. So far, their process has proven to be the correct one.

</p>

<p>Don’t try this at work. Your employer will get sued badly on charges of discrimination.</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

Humm, are you sure that I claimed such thing? Since I have no recollection of ever having discussed manhole covers or supported “quirky” candidates, I am afraid you are a tad off.

</p>

<p>My apologies then. Will the person who made the original post about goatherding and collecting manhole covers please stand up?</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

A few years ago, I saw statistics about the wealth of various ethnic groups in California. As expected the Asians presented the dual image of the “richer” Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, or Korean versus the “poorer” Laotians, Vietnamese, Hmongs. This seems to correspond to the studies that track the level of parental education among the various groups of immigrants.

</p>

<p>As a group Asians are the richest ethic group in the USA in terms of income. This goes to show that some subsections of Asians are even more well-compensated. These folsk need to start donating money to the Elite Us as while the universities turn there noses at students who choose lucrative careers, they are willing to give a 3x admissions advantage to those kids whose forefathers provide much filthy lure to the Elite Us.</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

IP and others do not want private colleges to be allowed to consider these things. It appears that they would prefer that all colleges operate like the UCs. Why should HYPS operate like the UCs, when their current process works so well?

</p>

<p>USA as a country did exceptionally well before the Civil Rights era, too.</p>