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<p>Not sure, but the Jewish quota would be obnoxious either way.</p>
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<p>Many, but I suspect that they are afraid to speak up and be labeled a Pat Buchanan.</p>
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<p>Truth be told, I find it a little strange, since I have lived as a minority for the better part of my life and never had any unease. But I guess I shouldn’t generalize my propensity to look beyond race and treat everyone as a human being with their own culture and preferences. If that preference includes preponderance of European descendants, so be it, as long as no laws in the country are broken. As I said before, perhaps my next door neighbour doesn’t like his traditionally upscale Caucasian neighbourhood tarnished by the onslaught of recent non-Caucasian immigrants, but as long as he is not urinating in my front yard or poisoning my dog, I am fine.</p>
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<p>I don’t. I have seen only a tiny sliver of America, and none of Harvard.</p>
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<p>In other words, so that the applicant can make up something he thinks the admissions committee wants to hear instead of writing an honest essay?</p>
<p>[Dangit, I promised myself I wasn’t going to look at this endless, ridiculous thread again, much less post in it.]</p>
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<p>The best way to foster honesty is not to unjustly punish it. Why do you think the Constitution has the 5th Amendment?</p>
<p>I wasn’t aware that the 5th amendment dealt with college admissions essays. I think it has something to do with testifying against yourself in criminal proceedings.</p>
<p>When your children start lying to you, you can be proud that you taught them well.</p>
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<p>It is a matter of guiding principles.</p>
<p>If I unjustly punish my children for telling the truth, instead of guiding them where they went wrong and how they should act in future, then I deserve to be lied to.</p>
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<p>Welcome to the club!</p>
<p>IndianParent has such a cynical view of the whole admissions process and he hasn’t even been on CC that long. :)</p>
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<p>I was born a cynic.</p>
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<p>Not that this will add anything worthwhile to this thread, but have you considered how “unease” with neighbors tends to vanish when people share the same SES and perhaps education level. From what you have stated in this thread, you are Indian and educated at some of the very best schools in India and the United States (I think IIT, and two Ivies with one MBA degree from probably Wharton.) You also possess a remarkable command of English. All in all, a rather un-minority-like position. </p>
<p>Every so often, I like to read Mending Wall by Robert Frost. Helps understand how different the true relations between neighbors might be from the … obvious, or from the usual perception of dividers. </p>
<p>There where it is we do not need the wall:
He is all pine and I am apple orchard.
My apple trees will never get across
And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him.
He only says, ‘Good fences make good neighbors’.</p>
<p>He will not go behind his father’s saying,
And he likes having thought of it so well
He says again, “Good fences make good neighbors.” </p>
<p>[Frost</a>, Mending Wall](<a href=“http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88/frost-mending.html]Frost”>Frost, Mending Wall)</p>
<p>I’ve been away for a week, and the continued discussion has been fascinating, if not very enlightening. I just have a couple of points to make (or, most likely, remake):
- There continues to be a confusion at various points between two issues: whether schools should give preferences to URMs, and whether they are discriminating against Asians in favor of whites on the basis of race. The former is a philosophical issue, and the latter is a factual issue.
- On the URM issue, I would just note that one might give more credence to those whose philosophical position doesn’t coincide with their own personal interests. I would be much more interested, thus, in hearing a poor African-American kid tell me why such preferences aren’t needed or justified than I would be in hearing the same argument from a white or Asian kid. And this is why, I suppose, white liberals who support these preferences have to be labelled as “paternalistic” in order to obscure this point.
- On the discrimination against Asians point, I will just reiterate that the evidence for this remains pretty thin. I’m not surprised that nobody who believes in the discrimination really wants to summarize the evidence, because it doesn’t amount to much. Sure, it could be happening.
- Finally, I really get tired of insinuations or accusations of racism every time somebody wants to mention differences between ethnic groups based on cultural background. Sure, there is unfair stereotyping, but there are also generalizations that are very much based in reality. Perhaps it would be less offensive to some if I note that these generalizations are not really primarily based on race, but more on national origin. So, for example, I think it’s largely true that immigrants from France are much more likely to speak French than immigrants from the Ukraine. Is that an offensive stereotype? If I said that immigrants from France are more likely to like cheese than most Americans, is that an offensive stereotype? I don’t think so, because I think it’s likely to be true. If I said that French immigrants are more likely to surrender than others, I think that would be an offensive stereotype that is unfairly projected on undeserving people. So when I say that, in my experience, children of immigrants from a number of Asian families have some common traits, is that offensive? Not if it’s true, in my opinion.
- Somebody asked what Asians should do if there is discriminaiton and unfair stereotyping. I think they are already doing those things that will change this (or the perception of it)–their kids are branching out in their interests, going to a broader range of colleges, picking up different hobbies and musical instruments. I do think it’s fair for them also to challenge colleges and employers to examine whether they are unfairly stereotyping–does the white math/science drone seem more inherently interesting than the Asian version? If so, that’s not right.</p>
<p>xiggi, I believe that I perfectly integrated, but only partially assimilated. I also know that there are many, many others like me. Thus, I find it strange when the color of my skin or my accent precludes me from being part of the European culture in some people’s estimation. To that, I say</p>
<p>*Shall I part my hair behind? Do I dare to eat a peach?<br>
I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.<br>
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each. </p>
<p>I do not think that they will sing to me.*</p>
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<p>Emphasis on poor. Wouldn’t you want to know the perspective of a poor White or Asian kid as well to compare notes?</p>
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<p>I have posted this link three times so far. How many more times do I have to post it?</p>
<p>[eScholarship:</a> Admissions and Public Higher Education in California, Texas, and Florida: The Post-Affirmative Action Era](<a href=“Admissions and Public Higher Education in California, Texas, and Florida: The Post-Affirmative Action Era”>Admissions and Public Higher Education in California, Texas, and Florida: The Post-Affirmative Action Era)</p>
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<p>Don’t buy this at all. The solution to end discrimination is not to change yourself. It is to stand up for your rights and be accepted for who you are.</p>
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<p>Totally agree.</p>
<p>Indianparent
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<p>Then, your participation in this entire thread (all 400 posts) has been a strictly academic excercise?</p>
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<p>IMO, a more appropriate quote for this particular website would be “April is the cruelest month.”</p>
<p>:)</p>
<p>Don’t worry folks. Only about 1500 more posts and I’m certain Harvard will be changing their policy entirely.</p>
<p>Hunt,
re 1. on the philosophical issue, there is ambiguity in the laws: what is the difference between quotas, balancing and diversity? The sanctioned term “OVERrepresented minority” does imply that more are turned away to achieve a proportion that the college desires. Is this racist? Discriminatory? Legal? Illegal?</p>
<p>How can Affirmative Action in a system with a very limited of desired places NOT discriminate against other “races” if it does not give preference to some? </p>
<p>re 5.
But do you think having “racial” boxes to identify college applicants is a particularly important way to categorize applicants? Could it be setting up some unfairness, some generalizing, some stereotyping? Is it really accomplishing what it is set up to do?
Why is it even necessary? Would you suggest any better categories?</p>
<p>P.s. there ARE some URM students on this and other threads who do think that the racial boxes are a bad idea…</p>
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<p>Who “cares?” Because others are using it in this thread, as if I am (and some other posters are) relating the terms “over” and “under” to Asians, not to other minority groups! They’re asking me and many others to defend, and now even quantify, an abstraction that is not even operative in elite college admissions because those posters’ definitions assume absolutes (quotas) not comparatives. I am responsible neither for college policy nor for invention of terms in the common social vocabulary.</p>
<p>E-
In my post, at that point, I was not talking about YOU, just the widely accepted and sanctioned term. </p>
<p>Abstractly, it reveals something.
Since you asked me, I say to you, Do you see that the term does imply the need to NOT accept a certain minority beyond some amount to avoid over -representation of that minority “race”?</p>