<p>I don’t really understand why some are arguing against the enumerated boxes when they have already proclaimed that not stating race is futile, due to applicant surnames.</p>
<p>Edit: fab excepted, of course, due to his Anglicized name-change.</p>
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<p>Let’s side aside our differences for now. I’m asking you a question in good faith. When you read Kuklinski’s review, what is your impression of Gurin et al.'s findings?</p>
<p>Did Kuklinski not say that “some independent variables are significantly related…and not among others”?</p>
<p>Did Kuklinski not say that classroom diversity only had a significant impact for whites and Latinos? I’m not seeing how this supports the “educational benefits” hypothesis, which alleges that EVERYONE benefits. Gurin et al.'s findings suggest that some benefit while others don’t.</p>
<p>Moreover, did Kuklinski not say that in a separate dataset, relationships did not consistently reach statistical significance even for whites?</p>
<p>I’m really not seeing how those results lead one to say, “Diversity produces educational benefits.” No sarcasm, no bad faith here. Just complete bewilderment as to how those results could lead to that conclusion.</p>
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<p>Sewhappy, have no fear. You did not offend me. You believed my posts intimated I was a professional admission counselor. That is not the case, but your speculation was not offensive. I did not elaborate because others did it for me, and because I rarely, if ever, share personal information on the public forum, and because I do not think it is really important or relevant. I am not particularly secretive as dozens of members of CC know me and what I do for a living “in real life.” </p>
<p>This said, I am happy to confirm that I have never charged a student or their parents for services or guidance. Some might say that you get what you pay for! I’d like to think that doing it like that has kept the price right.</p>
<p>Further, since I have not done it, I do not know how once establishes himself as an admission guru. What I have done is share my opinion (and perhaps my advice) freely on this forum, and never refused to help anyone when it was feasible … here and in the communities where I have lived studied, and worked. I am proud of having been able to help a very substantial number of students (and without any racial distinctions) through public postings, and most importantly through direct correspondence. </p>
<p>That is why I found and continue to find the gratuitous remarks of a few posters offensive, but not worthy of further rebuttals. I duly noted that it is easier to attempt to attack the record of contributions of another member than to defend his own.</p>
<p>fab,</p>
<p>Here is Gurin’s report, if that helps.[EXPERT</a> REPORT OF PATRICIA GURIN](<a href=“http://www.vpcomm.umich.edu/admissions/legal/expert/gurintoc.html]EXPERT”>http://www.vpcomm.umich.edu/admissions/legal/expert/gurintoc.html)</p>
<p>I prefer not to dissect and analyze the relevant studies on this forum, because I am not an expert in this area, and to my knowledge, neither are you. Gurin’s study is generally cited by researchers as consistent with later findings. Read the Chang report that I posted.</p>
<p>Quote:
Don’t play games, fabrizio. You know their numbers would be greatly diminished, and would be far below their representation in the population (they are already below their representation in the population at most elite schools). Why do you think that is? Bad luck?
Since we’ve brought up sensitive issues, why stop now?</p>
<p>The late John Ogbu’s answer to your question appears to be “their [black students] own attitudes, and those of their parents”.</p>
<p>That article seemed to be about GPA, not SAT’s. (I only skimmed it because I’ve read it before). I thought we were talking about SAT’s.</p>
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<p>I am not in Dr. Gurin’s field of “psychology and women’s studies.” I do not have to be to question how her findings lead to her conclusion.</p>
<p>“culture-bound syndromes” to lighten the mood…</p>
<p>“A Bad Case of the Brain Fags
And other mental problems you probably won’t get in America.”
<a href=“http://www.slate.com/id/2298453/[/url]”>http://www.slate.com/id/2298453/</a></p>
<p>“Take “Old Hag Syndrome,” a type of sleep paralysis in Newfoundland in which one is visited by what appears to be a rather unpleasant old hag sitting on one’s chest at night.”</p>
<p>“Wild Man Syndrome,” in which New Guinean males become hyperactive, clumsy, kleptomaniacal, </p>
<p>and conveniently amnesic, “Brain ■■■ Syndrome” (more on that in a moment), and “Stendhal Syndrome,” a delusional disorder experienced mostly by Italians after gazing upon artistic masterpieces. </p>
<p>"The phenomenonology of Brain ■■■ Syndrome is captured in a prototypical case described by Bolanie Ola and his colleagues in a 2009 review from the African Journal of Psychiatry:</p>
<pre><code>A Yoruba male … who when studying for an exam began to have sharp pains in his head and could not grasp what he was reading. He slept more than usual, and had difficulty forcing himself to go to school in the morning. When writing the examinations, he felt he knew the answers, but was unable to recall them; his mind was blank. His right hand was weak and shook so that he couldn’t write. Because of these symptoms, he was forced to postpone the writing examinations for several years. His symptoms improved greatly with Largactil (an antipsychotic medication) and reassurance. "
</code></pre>
<p>ot</p>
<p>““muscle dysmorphia.” The condition is limited to Western males, who suffer the delusion that they are insufficiently ripped.” Within body-building circles, in fact, muscle dysmorphia has long been recognized as a sort of reverse anorexia nervosa. But it’s almost entirely unheard of among Asian men. Unlike hypermasculine Western heroes such as Hercules, Thor, and the chiseled Arnold of yesteryear, the Japanese and Chinese have tended to prefer their heroes fully clothed, mentally acute, and lithe, argue Kanayama and Pope. In fact, they say anabolic steroid use is virtually nonexistent in Asian countries, even though the drugs are considerably easier to obtain, being available without a prescription at most neighborhood drugstores"</p>
<p>xiggi, Let’s say an Asian applicant came to you for advice. The kid is brilliant in STEM, and I mean BRILLIANT. Math Olympiad, Science Olympiad, Intel, RSI, what have you. The SAT I and II scores are 800 all over the map. GPA is 4.0, from a tough school, and has taken every STEM AP course possible. </p>
<p>That’s all the kid has though. No ECs whatsoever, and no interest in anything but STEM. Quite introverted, but will likely make a huge contribution in whatever area of STEM the kid goes to which would change the world for better in a way that is unimaginable. (There is a crystal ball that is 100% infallible that tells you so.)</p>
<p>Not a leader in any way and not interested in being a leader. However, just for kicks, plays the piano damn well, and has played on stage in solo performances at a series of well-known orchestras. No interest in any music but classical. Practices math and piano 16 hours a day, and has been pushed by his/her parents to do it.</p>
<p>What advice would you give to this kid?</p>
<p>Now let’s say a hundred Asian kids like this show up. They are all applying to Princeton. What advice would you give to them?</p>
<p>OK, make it a thousand kids like that. Now what? Let’s also assume that the kids will not reach their full potentials unless they go to Princeton. (The crystal ball tells you so.) So humanity loses out if they miss Princeton.</p>
<p>Oh, heck, let’s open this up to the forum at large. What would you advice this kid - or set of kids - to do, kind ladies and gentlemen? Assume that they are all applying to just one school, Yale. Or Princeton. Or, just for kicks, make it Harvard.</p>
<p>I would buy the kid the book “How to win friends and influence people” and tell him/her to read and practice it. I would also tell the “kid” that it is important to learn how to speak to and interact with adults. I would tell them to get out of their comfort zone and to challenge themself to do things that scare them. I would do all I could to expose them to situations that could help them grow as a person. </p>
<p>Sorry IP, but a “brilliant but doormat” kid just isn’t very interesting. Would you want your own child to be brilliant but lacking leadership or a pretty darn smart leader? I think most Americans would prefer the latter.</p>
<p>IP…I think you are forgetting that your hypothetical Kid needs to be able to live/work in a global marketplace. The skills you gave the kid(s) are insufficient if they are to have a profound effect on society. A kid with no skills beyond “brilliance” would never be able to secure grants or sell their ideas. They need to have “survival skills”. How about the ability to collaborate with non STEM people? How about the ability to adapt to new/unique academic or social situations? Do they have initiative/entrepreneurialism? Will they seek opportunities to be self-advocates and be able to navigate academia? Do they have effective oral and written communication skills?Do they show curiosity and imagination? Can they engage others?</p>
<p>IP…the world is not stagnant but continually evolving, brilliance is not enough. If this is all they had (crystal ball and all) it would not be enough.</p>
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<p>I doubt it xiggi. I have been in these forums as long as you have and I no doubt know people do PM a lot and you may have a lot of supporters, but don’t pretend people actually know you.</p>
<p>You once acknowledged you were a student at CMC, but from your posts since 2004 and previous to that in the other forum, and you may have attended CMC but I doubt you were an undergraduate student during those years. Anyways, no matter, these forums are anonymous.</p>
<p>I don’t believe sewhappy’s speculations are too farfetched about people who seem to have more expertise in this field.</p>
<p>I won’t say that leadership abilities and the ability to get along with others is not important, even in a STEM career. However, I think a lot of the ways in which leadership is measured at the high school/college level are BS. Either you have leadership qualities or you don’t, and if you have talent, it’s more likely you will be working on that developing that talent rather than proving your leadership abilities. This is especially true with “leadership activities” which suck a great deal of time from said talent.</p>
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<p>Go to Caltech, whose mission seems to be to educate this sort of kid. MIT used to have the same mission, but lately seems to be making an effort to be more like an Ivy (which is a shame IMO).</p>
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So I take it you only want to pull the rug out from under Hispanics, and not blacks? I also point out that being less fortunate is not only about money.</p>
<p>As for IndianParent’s example–there aren’t a thousand STEM kids who are that good, with the Olympiads, Intel, etc. Kids with those major prizes do get in to the most elite schools, even if they don’t have a lot else. If one kid who was really as you described came to me, I’d probably advise him to look at MIT or Caltech, because I don’t think he’d enjoy Harvard very much. But Harvard would probably take him. The problem comes when you drop the major prizes, and just have a kid who’s very good at math and science, has top scores, but has no leadership and no ECs. Harvard just doesn’t want many kids like that, whatever race they might happen to be.</p>
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But why do black students have those negative attitudes about education? Why are so many of them in single-family households? Why are so many in poor neighborhoods, and in underperforming schools? My point is that the reasons for these problems are historical, and the solutions, in my opinion, require continued collective action by all of society. You can’t just say to black people, “OK, you’ve had enough help. Shake it off, start caring about education, and stop living in single-family households, etc.”</p>
<p>Note: the Wikipedia entry on Ogbu is very interesting.</p>
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<p>I want treatment without regard to racial classification. You can spin that as “pull[ing] the rug out from under [insert “group” here]” if you like, since by definition there are no racial preferences if applicants are treated without regard to their racial classification.</p>
<p>And you didn’t really answer my question. These “less fortunate” you speak of, who are they?</p>
<p>I think I intimated that black kids, at least, are to a large extent less fortunate than you in this country. Which is why, obviously, you referred only to Hispanics in your response–a typical rhetorical move for you. As I’ve said numerous times, I know much less about the situation of Hispanics in this country, so perhaps there is more justification for pulling the rug out from under them than there is for black kids and Native Americans. Perhaps if you sharpened your crusade to only focus on the injustice of helping Hispanics, you might find more support.</p>
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<li><p>I’m not sure if Ogbu answered your question directly. He did note with puzzlement that black parents in Shaker Heights mistrusted the school system but felt that it was the system’s duty to educate their children. If that attitude of mistrust rubbed off on their children, that could partially explain the negative attitudes of the students.</p></li>
<li><p>Hasn’t the War on Drugs caused a “reverse China” problem among American blacks? That is, there are too many women and not enough men?</p></li>
<li><p>Your question is not relevant to Ogbu’s study. Shaker Heights is an affluent community with excellent public schools.</p></li>
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<p>Your “historical reasons” argument is flawed because black students did not always have such negative attitudes about education. The rate of children born out of wedlock was lower in the 1960s. And as for underperforming schools, didn’t whites used to attend those schools? Why’d they leave?</p>
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IP if the kid is that brilliant they’ll want him anyway - even at schools with holistic admissions a well-rounded class includes some kids whose only plus is brilliant academics. I’d agree he sounds like a best fit for Caltech which doesn’t care about kids with outside interests. My similarly boring kid was accepted at Harvard, but chose to go to Carnegie Mellon because the academics in his field were better there.</p>
<p>If for some reason he has his heart set on HYPM I’d advise him to write a brilliant and funny essay that makes someone at the admissions committee think - I’d like to have this kid as a roommate or sitting next to me in math class. My oldest sent in an application that basically said “I am a computer nerd take me or leave me.” He had a computer program write the first paragraph of his essay and then wrote about how his computer programming skills clearly needed improvement since that paragraph was pretty awful. It was cute and clever. But he didn’t try to change who he was.</p>
<p>Based on last year and previous year RSI batches college admissions, the kid probably has a very good shot at HYPSM and Caltech. Based on the profile though, his life will be miserable unless he is at Caltech or MIT.</p>