are colleges racist?

[fireandrain]

<p>

Do you need to consider racial classification “to create an interesting, high-potential “soup” who will feed off one another to go do smart, interesting things”?

</p>

<p>Yes. Just like you need to consider gender, geography, etc. Race is just as important.</p>

[aegrisomnia]

<p>In response to the OP:</p>

<p>Yes, of course colleges are racist. Sexist, too. Otherwise, I’d have got a lot more scholarship money during my stint as an undergraduate (white anglo-saxon protestant male).</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>

~A larger support system at certain other colleges/universities, both public and private, HBCU and non-HBCU.</p>

<p>~A history of a particular ‘monied’ culture at some Ivies especially. Whether or not a “private privileged club” mentality still exists at any of those, or is perceived to exist currently by particular URM’s who otherwise might consider such a college, the anxiety about such a cultural legacy among a subset of the student body could be a deterrent. (It has been one, expressed to me; I just don’t have evidence about how prevalent that concern is.)

</p>

<ol>
<li>What do you mean by a “support system”? I assume it refers to several things: how many other "URM"s there are, how many are graduates, and how well those graduates are doing. What have I missed? Am I even on the right track with what you’re getting at?</li>
</ol>

<p>And what can these private elites do to rectify this “support system” deficit?</p>

<ol>
<li>So why are some "URM"s not deterred by this, and what can you do to make the others likewise feel undeterred?</li>
</ol>

<p>

~geographic location, including composition of surrounding community (“at-home” with that, or not), combined with possible distance from home (such as students of all colors, from poor backgrounds, also consider; plane travel is expensive, and minimally ‘funded’ as a part of financial aid packages)</p>

<p>~the understanding that what really counts, ultimately, is employability, and that employability rests not only on location of credentials but on self-confidence when applying for jobs, imagining onself in jobs, and interviewing for those jobs. The HBCU’s (for example) provide a very strong support system for growing self-confidence in that respect. (Confirmed, in addition, by the list of illustrious graduates of this group of colleges, including several in public service.)

</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Well, not much you can do about this one, and I don’t think it’s unique to "URM"s.</p></li>
<li><p>But this point seems to confirm that it DOES NOT MATTER that we might not get “enough” "URM"s at private elites under a race-blind admissions sytem, given the oversupply of qualified candidates relative to slots.</p></li>
</ol>

[epiphany]

<p>How does this [yours]:

But this point seems to confirm that it DOES NOT MATTER that we might not get “enough” "URM"s at private elites under a race-blind admissions sytem, given the oversupply of qualified candidates relative to slots.

</p>

<p>follow from this [mine]:

~the understanding that what really counts, ultimately, is employability, and that employability rests not only on location of credentials but on self-confidence when applying for jobs, imagining onself in jobs, and interviewing for those jobs. The HBCU’s (for example) provide a very strong support system for growing self-confidence in that respect. (Confirmed, in addition, by the list of illustrious graduates of this group of colleges, including several in public service.)

</p>

<p>Are you implying that URM’s should just “keep their place”?</p>

[epiphany]

<p>

What do you mean by a “support system”? I assume it refers to several things: how many other "URM"s there are, how many are graduates, and how well those graduates are doing. What have I missed? Am I even on the right track with what you’re getting at?

</p>

<p>/sigh.<br>
What you “have missed” is the history of black success (and struggles, failures) in this country, and the reasons for struggle, success, and failure which are unique to that group, not necessarily shared by other groups.</p>

<p>

And what can these private elites do to rectify this “support system” deficit?

</p>

<p>They’re not trying to supply a support system necessarily, although Columbia U, as a NY college and member of the HEOP, does support the latter students with tutoring, mentoring, etc.</p>

[Professor101]

<p>

“[O]ur admission system failed to recognize that it could be gamed and manipulated by subgroups where the cultural definition of cheating is slightly different . . .” -xiggi</p>

<p>Racist much?

Agreed.</p>

<p>Here is how Hitler falsely accused the Jews: “But it remained for the Jews, with their unqualified capacity for falsehood, …”</p>

<p>See the parallel: “cheating”, and “capacity for falsehood”?</p>

<p>It is a very dangerous game now.</p>

[fireandrain]

<p>Brown has a preorientation program for minorities to offer support, and continues the support throughout the year. All minorities are invited to attend, including Asians. </p>

<p>Fab, you should read a book called “The Hope in the Unseen.” it will give you a good picture of an African American from DC who got into Brown with low SAT scores - what his home and school life were like before college, his obstacles, and what life at Brown was like for him. That book may answer a lot of your questions.</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>epiphany, I reproduce your quote:</p>

<p>

~the understanding that what really counts, ultimately, is employability, and that employability rests not only on location of credentials but on self-confidence when applying for jobs, imagining onself in jobs, and interviewing for those jobs. The HBCU’s (for example) provide a very strong support system for growing self-confidence in that respect. (Confirmed, in addition, by the list of illustrious graduates of this group of colleges, including several in public service.)

</p>

<p>You are saying that this one of the reasons why more "URM"s do not apply to private elites. That is, they UNDERSTAND that you don’t have to go to “HYPSM et al” to be successful. Good for them, I say! But if they understand that it’s really about them instead of “HYPSM et al,” then again, what’s it matter that “not enough” "URM"s may be admitted under race-blind admissions due to oversupply?</p>

<p>

Are you implying that URM’s should just “keep their place”?

</p>

<p>Absolutely NOT.</p>

[Shrinkrap]

<p>"But if they understand that it’s really about them instead of “HYPSM et al,” then again, what’s it matter that “not enough” “URM"s may be admitted under race-blind admissions due to oversupply?”</p>

<p>I think it’s not just about one thing.</p>

<p>And it’s not just one “they.” Many, if not most, don’t care about HYPSM, but those that do, are probably going to pick the one with “enough”. Perhaps HYPS all want to be the one "they " want to pick. I think “M”. is looking for a different “they.”</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>

What you “have missed” is the history of black success (and struggles, failures) in this country, and the reasons for struggle, success, and failure which are unique to that group, not necessarily shared by other groups.

</p>

<p>

They’re not trying to supply a support system necessarily, although Columbia U, as a NY college and member of the HEOP, does support the latter students with tutoring, mentoring, etc.

</p>

<p>I asked you what you meant by a “support system” in good faith. It was not clear to me, though it was one of those obvious things to you. Could you please tell me what you mean by it?</p>

<p>

…it will give you a good picture of an African American from DC who got into Brown with low SAT scores - what his home and school life were like before college, his obstacles, and what life at Brown was like for him. That book may answer a lot of your questions.

</p>

<p>I’ll look into it, but as of now (not having read it yet), it seems like you’re describing a student who lived in poverty. But I haven’t read the book, and I’ll see if it’s available.</p>

[epiphany]

<p>

That is, they UNDERSTAND that you don’t have to go to “HYPSM et al” to be successful.

</p>

<p>Fab, other posters also are very exasperated with the way you twist your own questioning. You asked me why more don’t apply to Ivies. I didn’t say that none apply to Ivies, nor that those who do should not apply to Ivies, nor that those who attend HBCU’s will necessarily have equal/better chance of employment/life success just because that set of colleges have strong support systems. I said (as Shrinkrap also said) that there are a variety of reasons why URM’s (any individuals among them) might not apply to Ivies. There are also a variety of reasons why other individuals, from whatever personal origins (including “majorities”) would not want to apply to Ivies, even if qualified to do so. Those reasons have to do with the entire campus experience – reasons which every single individual considering whatever colleges he/she is considering, should also ponder. Princeton is not Harvard. Harvard is not Yale. Neither is Columbia. Very different campuses, very different experiences. “Smart” people don’t randomly pick colleges relative to the USNWR rankings, nor what Urban Legends they like to pass around about “guarantees” of high-paid employment and a Golden Life.</p>

<p>fireandrain gave you an excellent suggestion which you might want to pursue before continuing this line of questioning. It will answer many of your questions. In brief, URM’s otherwise qualifed, and well so, for a so-called “elite” university, might seek HBCU’s instead (or publics or other privates with a strong URM presence) for the same reason that many urban families enroll in charter schools specifically tailored to those populations. It’s a level of support not found at home, or certainly not consistently, K-12. And it’s a culture of affirmation not compromised by mixed messages which the student might have experienced in the past, in or outside of a school environment.</p>

[Shrinkrap]

<p>"I think “M”. is looking for a different “they.” "</p>

<p>I think I was thinking of CIT. My bad. 106 black applicants last year, out of 4589 total applicants. Six ended up attending.</p>

<p>Cal had 2670 out of 57,382.</p>

<p>Notre Dame had 642 of 14,521</p>

<p>But Columbia, Duke, Brown and Harvard all had about 2,800 applicants out of about 26,000. And I’m betting it was mostly the same 2,800 kids.</p>

<p>Hesitate to post this, but here goes. Of course it doesn’t tell the whole, or even half of the story. It DOES tell you there is not a “glut” of black students at these schools, and that the number attending probably represents less than one percent of black college age students. I think the number is even lower in the next fifty schools.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.jbhe.com/2010survey.png[/url]”>http://www.jbhe.com/2010survey.png&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

[sorghum]

<p>Bay:

Under our current system of justice, using race as a factor in admissions is just. There is no higher authority to go to in this country to get a different answer.

</p>

<p>I assume you refer to the Supreme Court. My amateur understanding is that the SC interprets what is lawful, not what is ‘just’.</p>

<p>Many things permitted by law in the US look hideously unjust (many mandatory sentencing policies for example), but have been found lawful.</p>

[texaspg]

<p>shrinkrap - with yields of 51% or less for all schools other than Harvard, Stanford and MIT, it does look like most of the same people are admitted to multiple schools or they are just not to them once they are admitted?</p>

[Katyfachorn]

<p>I don’t think so. Possibly they have higher expectations because of the stereotype of Asians being the hardest workers, academically, like if you have a pretty good GPA when most others have 4.5s.
Schools fill a quota of nationalities, and it might be that Asians with impossible resumes fill that quote.
I change my answer to indirect, accidental discrimination.</p>

[glido]

<p>“Under our current system of justice, using race as a factor in admissions is just. There is no higher authority to go to in this country to get a different answer. The only thing you can do if you do not like the answer, is to take some action by filing a suit or lobbying Congress to change the law. Thats about it.” - Bay</p>

<p>You need to learn to expand your mind. It took more than filing lawsuits and lobbying congress to end slavery and Jim Crow. There is more . . . much more.</p>

[sorghum]

<p>

Schools fill a quota of nationalities, and it might be that Asians with impossible resumes fill that quote.

</p>

<p>Well, just remember this whole thread is about Asian-AMERICANS, who are natural born United States citizens, not nationals of any Asian country.</p>

<p>International student admission is a different and not very controversial issue.</p>

[xiggi]

<p>

Agreed.</p>

<p>Here is how Hitler falsely accused the Jews: “But it remained for the Jews, with their unqualified capacity for falsehood, …”</p>

<p>See the parallel: “cheating”, and “capacity for falsehood”?

</p>

<p>Some people seem to be quite willing to throw the term “racist” with abandon! Wasn’t it our esteemed “Professor” who called Stanford racist? Now a parallel with none other than Hitler! </p>

<p>Fwiw, some might want to check the CC rules regarding the use of ad hominem.</p>

[texaspg]

<p>Is that a Harry Potter rule about “He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named”?</p>

[xiggi]

<p>? ? ?</p>