<p>Hunt, you are obviously correct about not engaging in a debate. Fwiw, I believe you have now raised the issue of not obtaining a response from Fabrizio close to a dozen times. You probably notice that your “opponents” are simply ignoring your repeated claim, and that people who agree with you … might be too tired to even post in agreement. </p>
<p>This thread, as about every similar one that came before, will not resolve anything. While it is blatantly obvious that there is NO data that supports the claim of discrimination against Asians, this does not seem to faze the complainers. And for a good reason, they know they need to stick to anecdotes and “moving targets” to make their points. Every attempt to present a cogent argument result in the start of a discussion about arcane and mostly trivial details. </p>
<p>In the meantime, the complainers show no hesitations to use sketchy “data” and idle speculation to push the same old trite agenda. In this regard, nothing has changed since 2003 on CC, except for the occasional actors who “appear” to be different. It’s ALWAYS the same hackneyed position based on incomplete or entirely false assumptions. </p>
<p>It’s nothing but a game. And an unclear one at best. At least some of the “older” posters a la Luigi/Ed Chin were more direct in stating their point of contention … it was a much simpler “If schools were forced to remove racial preferences a la AA, Asians would see a drastic rise in admissions at the most selective schools.” Right or wrong, that is a point that could be argued positively or negatively. </p>
<p>However, the current “dialogue” is, unfortunately, nothing but “No. I did not say that or this” and other mental games. That and plenty of idle speculation or patently false information.</p>
<p>Hard to have a dialogue when one side thinks the other side is just in a “phase” and doesn’t believe that it’s legitimate to oppose racial preferences.</p>
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</p>
<p>Strong words coming from someone who thinks Asians are “overrepresented” because their “culture” condones cheating.</p>
Who knows–and who cares? We’re not talking about STEM rates among URMs. Do you really want to suggest that STEM rates are the same at top schools among whites and Asians? I find that much, much harder to swallow than the proposition that those schools might not want “too many Asians.” That, at least, is plausible. But I’d still like to know why, exactly, you think schools are doing that. Or do you, in fact, think that they are?</p>
<p>xiggi, I think you’re right. I’m kind of like a dog with a bone, though–I don’t like to let go. Perhaps if we keep arguing it long enough, the Asians will be fully assimilated and it will be a moot point.</p>
<p>@mokusatsu: As much fun as it is to debate the relative merits of dictionaries with you, I think I’ve had enough. Please feel free to keep posting, though, just in case others find your posts as amusing as I do.</p>
<p>@Hunt: I’ll have to agree with Fabrizio on the specific question of your suggesting that his argument is invalid because he’s too young to have a valid opinion. That’s a fallacy, and I suspect you know it.</p>
<p>“Fully assimilated.” Interesting phrase. As I recall it, way back when, I asked you if you knew of any visible minorities that had “fully assimilated.” You stated that you didn’t know what I meant by “visible” and rolled off Poles, Italians, and Irish as examples of minorities that have “fully assimilated.”</p>
<p>Does it surprise anyone that Poles, Italians, and Irish can “fully assimilate”? They’re…white (i.e. not visible minorities).</p>
<p>If anything, their being treated as non-white or as “different” white by other whites when they first arrived shows how meaningless racial classification is and why we shouldn’t base policies on classifying Americans by “race.” And so, I repeat my question.</p>
<p>And while you’re at it, Hunt, riddle me this: are we not “fully assimilated” by choice? Or are we not “fully assimilated” because you think we aren’t?</p>
<p>Fab, this is not a question, but an observation. I think being a parent changes your perspective, as does living in Georgia, as opposed to many other communities. For me, living in the south is a completely different experience of race when compared to living in California, NYC, or DC.</p>
<p>With regard to the “Racism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary” link. Did I miss something? I get </p>
<p>"Definition of RACISM
1
: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2
: racial prejudice or discrimination
— rac·ist -sist also -shist\ noun or adjective </p>
<p>I think it would be a different thread if this thread were entitled " Do colleges consider race in admissions?"</p>
<p>I can’t resist suggesting that somebody who thinks people of a different color can’t fully assimilate is the *real *racist. Or who thinks that “we” (which I suppose means Asians) may choose not to assimilate. I also have to suggest that it’s a racial outlook to be so resistant to the idea that some of the disparities in admissions may have to do with culture and demographics. No, it HAS to be because of race.</p>
<p>But this is just another attack of waving hands to obscure the fact that fabrizio can’t, or won’t, answer the simple questions I’ve been asking over and over. Is it time for me to assume that he thinks discrimination against Asians is happening because “he knows it when he sees it?”</p>
<p>As for age, there are some parts of fabrizio’s arguments that I don’t discount because of youth or inexperience. I don’t think that has much to do, for example, with the discussion about whether schools discriminate against Asians or not. But when it comes to URMs, I do think that younger people, and especially people who are immigrants or who grew up in areas of the country without many minorities, really and truly have trouble understanding the history of race in this country. They see a black President, and lots of black celebrities, and black people in their high schools, and they think all that race stuff is old news. But it isn’t really old news. It’s not an insult to point out this generational difference.</p>
<p>In response to a comment of yours from several pages back, I do not believe that race doesn’t matter TODAY. It does. In my opinion, it should not matter, and the way to get there is to STOP classifying people by “race.” Will doing that bring us into a world where race is irrelevant like <em>that</em>? Of course not! But we will be on the right path.</p>
<p>I know racism against blacks exists. As an Asian, whites made derogatory comments against blacks in my presence, sometimes even to me directly. I never agreed with or joined in those comments. (Though to be fair, I didn’t always speak AGAINST them, either.)</p>
<p>But Asians are hardly immune from racism. I remember on the first day of class when I moved to the South from the Midwest, a black girl in my art class who sat a table away from me started making fun of my ethnicity even though I had never said a word to her. Of course, prejudice against Asians was not limited to blacks; an older white student came up to me as I was walking to another class and said, “From now on, I will call you ‘Chinese boy.’”</p>
<p>I went to a PUBLIC high school that was equally white and black and where a fair portion of the student body was eligible for free or reduced lunch. As such, I laugh whenever my “bona fides” on this issue are questioned.</p>
<p>If you mean me, I don’t think of myself as arguing. Fab and I have shared our opinons on this for years, and I have don’t (currently) think of myself as arguing with him. I don’t think I’m “right” or that he is “wrong”. I do think we have very different experiences that effect how we view things. I think a significant piece of that experience is race. Another piece is having kids, age, and where we lived. Related to the college issue is, I want my kids to have experiences that I did not realize were important until recently. </p>
<p>I’m not arguing. I like to think i am providing perspective that is…under-represented…(see how i did that? That’s what my kids say…)</p>
<p>I personally think your posts and argument are more solid and better argued than your “opposition” on this thread.</p>
<p>Hunt,</p>
<p>This line from you:</p>
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</p>
<p>Is disingenuous and you know it. There can be no iron clad proof until there is total transparency of the selection process for five or so years. You keep repeating this demand for proof as if it’s some sort of gotcha. What was the proof that African Americans in this country really, really needed to sit at the front of those buses? Did we have complete proof that they weren’t getting transported to where they needed to go? Seriously, if that had been the criterion back in the Civil Rights hey day we would not have passed the legislation that so transformed our society for the better.</p>
<p>You completely lose me when you keep demanding the proof. If you really care about human rights and racial equality you should be in the row of this fight, demanding that the records of who exactly had what scores, gpa, ECs, etc and what was their race and did they get accepted. If you really care about the principles of racial equality than that would be your priority.</p>
<p>Instead, it is clearly a case of a boomer who has dug in their heels and is going to defend a policy they supported no matter how out of tune it has become with a very dramatically evolving society.</p>
<p>There IS transparency in the selection process. It just happens to be a holistic one that takes multiple factors and the drawing-of-an-entire-class into account, that’s all. I recognize that some people WANT it to be mostly score-based so they can “prove” that certain ethnic groups belong in / don’t belong in in certain rates, but until people understand that these schools are trying to BUILD A CLASS, no further discussion can be had. I agree completely with Hunt - the “proof” so far seems to be basically there’s a lot of Asians with good qualifications who don’t get in top schools, as well as “everytime on CC, a URM posts his stats, all the other high school students tell him he’s golden!”</p>
<p>Oh great! Now we might have someone who could help this forum finally “get” what Fabrizio point has been. Since you find his posts and argument more solid and better argued than the opposition, do you mind telling us where he conclusively stated the case that Asian discrimination DOES indeed exist, and perhaps what the basis could be for his allegations of discrimination. </p>
<p>While I think that Fabrizio has not made this clear EVER, it seems that you find it well argued. Thus, it should be quite easy for any of the two of you to finally tell … us what the point really was. Please do not link to previous posts … just tell us in clear terms what his argument was all about. </p>
<p>I am not holding my bated breath on this one!</p>
<p>You seem to have the same sort of grumpy attitude of “where is the proof”?</p>
<p>Could you perhaps explain – in detailed terms – exactly what would constitute proof and how one would obtain such proof given the fact that these are private institutions?</p>
<p>It is excruciatingly obvious in virtually every high school in America that Asian kids, as well as unhooked white kids, must present a much higher level of academic fireworks to get a look, let alone “get in.”</p>
<p>Now to repeatedly go hiding behind the “we’re assembling a CLASS of assorted flavors” argument is just not passing the smell test for a whole lot of people in this society.</p>