We are saying the same thing and I am in agreement with what you wrote. You wrote about MIT and Caltech and Harvey Mudd being the only small stem schools. That is why I mentioned RH. Didn’t know we were talking about Region.
I was also saying with one kid in a lac and one at Michigan, both have the same opportunities with meeting with professors, smaller class sizes, etc.
Maybe it didn’t come across the way?
My prior comments are still inaccurately interpreted. I don’t want to get into a debate of LACs vs public flagships (or other larger research universities) for STEM or any other subject. I only highlighted some of the advantages of smaller classes in STEM, not just outside of STEM as some seem to believe.
Smaller colleges (including LACs) usually have smaller classes but small classes aren’t exclusively the domain of smaller colleges. I’m not advocating LACs over larger universities for STEM or any other subject, or vice versa. But LACs shouldn’t be overlooked by STEM applicants. STEM isn’t synonymous with engineering. Even for engineering, some LACs such as Swarthmore and Harvey Mudd are good training ground to build a foundation for future engineers.
I attended a STEM school (not an LAC) back in the day. With a few exceptions, most classes were small (typically less than a dozen students). During the first week of each of these classes, the professor would invite all students to his/her home, or take them out to a restaurant (presumably paid for by the school), to get to know each other better socially. Many of them were well-known in their respective fields (some even nationally), so they certainly made an impression on their students and made the students feel more comfortable interacting with them.
Kind of bored with the debate of LAC vs. large U for STEM or anything. My last point will be one shouldn’t confuse LAC (or smallish college/university) with “needing” hand holding. I find that offensive. It implies a kid wouldn’t “make it” or survive in a large state school.
That may be true for some I guess but for many, perhaps most, what the smaller school provides is simply a more interesting college experience (to them). Engaging professors, close knit campus community where kids want to stay on campus because it’s fun, school spirit, sense of belonging, etc. It’s just a different way to go through the four years. Not better. Not worse. Just different.
I went through the large state U. S (and soon D) is going through the smalish intimate school. I enjoyed my college yrs and did just fine. I’m sure my kids would have done just fine in the larger setting (actually would have been towards top of the class from a stats basis vs middle of the pack). Looking back, I would have loved to be in their college environment. I like the idea of engagement (academically and socially) that is so commonplace. Hard to imagine just going through the motions in that environment.
I think the experience depends on the school and the student. I know plenty of kids at large schools who have very engaged and personal experiences with professors, sense of belonging etc…and many others who don’t.
I also know students at LACs who did not make any effort to enjoy the positives of the LAC…and others who did.
I agree that the debate between LAC versus larger university is getting old and boring. There are too many variables and not one right answer. I also agree that comments such as “hand holding” are offensive.
One of my kids attended a small school (under 5000) and my other attended a large university. My D at the large university is the one who had personal connections with professors, dinners out, etc. She still does, even after graduation. My other one…a little bit, but nothing like her sibling.
Perhaps “hand holding” isn’t the most appropriate term, but if your student is in the bottom quintile at any college, wouldn’t you want your student to get a bit more help that a smaller class would more likely offer?
If a student is in the 25th percentile at a particular school, I would want to understand how he/she could be successful. I would also want to understand the overall picture. And yes I would imagine that a smaller class can be beneficial.
I know kids who absolutely were in the bottom quintile of highschool who got through college and doing very well now.
My friends who sprang for a small private school did see their son graduate, yes , barely, struggle for a few years, took a blue collar job laying wire (good pay) and because of his college degree got into management and now after an on line masters from Harvard is in the executive circles making far more money, enjoying his job greatly as he knows it well from ground up, than his far more academically talented siblings. His 6 year journey through college was tortuous and it took a small college willing to help out and make exceptions for him to get by. A semester at a local state school intended to bolster his academic standing ended in disaster.
I’ve seen several cases like this which is why I’m really hoping an at risk cousin can get to a small residential college . I do not believe that commuting from his home or going to a big state U is going to work for him. History in the family has borne that out clearly.
I just talked to a friend of a friend who is hesitant to pay the huge extra to send a not so academic kid to a private college over a state school. IMO, unless kid changes greatly, he’s going to be out of that state school in a year. Just maybe, the private will work. It has the support services and I know a number of “quirky” kids who beat the odds and got through college there. They can afford the differential, my vote was for Private U. Upon some reflection, they sent in the deposit there yesterday.
The problem, of course, is that many of the students who could be helped at such colleges are unable to attend such colleges due to cost constraints.
"My prior comments are still inaccurately interpreted. "
Your statement of " super talented or needs lots of hand-holding, s/he is more likely to benefit from colleges that offer smaller classes with easier interactivity with professors" pretty much is interpreted as it was - i.e. LACS are the places to go for the best kid or kids that need to have their hands held throughout college.
“Perhaps “hand holding” isn’t the most appropriate term, but if your student is in the bottom quintile at any college, wouldn’t you want your student to get a bit more help that a smaller class would more likely offer?”
I actually didn’t know about LACs having the perception for people that need hand holding until it was brought up in recent threads on kids deciding between a LAC and other colleges. I think it’s unfair as well, but the main hand holding I see is that if you’re in a core, your courses are pretty much set for you for one or two years, but that happens at other places as well - Chicago, Columbia e.g.
“There’s no reason to limit that statement to STEM.”
Well the OP’s daughter is majoring in a STEM field, that’s why the discussion on the statement that super-talented STEM kids should go to LACs was challenged. If the OP said the major was econ or government, that would be a different discussion, agree.
That’s what I meant for misinterpretation. Nowhere in that statement you just quoted did I mention LACs. I only stated “colleges that offer smaller classes”, which aren’t necessarily LACs. There’s a difference. “LACs are the places to go for the best kid or kids” is your interpretation, which far from what I believed.
@cptofthehouse I was referring to college, not HS.
And I know a student who graduated HS with a 2.0, went to a CC for 2 years and got straight A’s, and then transferred to our top state school. That is not uncommon.
Yes. I’m facing that now with the young cousin. His family don’t want to pay for college. He won’t qualify for enough financial aid to bring the cost down to make it doable and he isn’t a superstar catch to get close to a full ride.
There is that balance one often has to make. For most kids, a private college is not affordable. Most college students do not live on campus, work at least part time and go to school part time. They do not finish in 4 years and do not have the luxury of going full time for a full four year stretch.
So, to even consider a residential private 4 year college, one usually needs to have the money. Most of us on this forum find ourselves in the position of being able to afford state college prices, residential if lucky, commuting, otherwise but unless the student gets money, it’s painful if possible to afford a private school. So in such cases, we weigh the cost/benefits of such schools if it appears that the pricier options are preferable.
I think it’s worth $200,000 LESS than a state flagship.
Mainstream articles on this topic tend to be available (see links below), but they typically consider average costs of attendance, so comparing private colleges to public university alternatives can be especially challenging for full-pay families. Nevertheless, a school with a low overall cost like Thomas Aquinas College may offer relatively broad accessibility and, for students for whom it would be academically suitable, could represent a good school to research.
https://amp.kiplinger.com/slideshow/college/T014-S003-20-best-college-values-in-the-u-s-2019.html
If you wish to know someone who actually paid full freight for a LAC vs flagship state school, I am that person.
D chose Pomona College full pay vs UC Berkeley and UC San Diego at in state tuition. It was her decision. We are well off but $200K is not chump change for us.
She worked for a few years and received an MBA at a tippy top business school. No regrets.
The Forbes article is a little misleading, their 10 colleges that are worth penny don’t do as well on the best value colleges:
Amherst - 8
Williams - 17
Dartmouth - 18
Colgate - 35
Tufts- 100
Chicago - 85
Columbia - 48
Vassar - 63
Penn - 83
Hamilton - 58
They’re trying to attract two different audiences with the articles, but the inconsistency is still there.
People are looking for absolute objective answers for a question for which such answers do not exist.
My own undergraduate experience isn’t relevant, since it was in Israel, and I really only had a choice of public research universities. However I TAed at one major state flagship, and I taught undergraduates at two more public flagships and at one public R1 which isn’t a flagship. I also was strongly associated with undergraduate education at a smaller flagship, and at an “elite” private research university. My kid attends an “elite” LAC, and many of my friends and colleagues attended LACs, private research universities, and selective public universities.
Almost every one of the people at all of these paces was happy with the education that they received at their college. While many were sidetracked from their careers, it was never because they attended the “wrong” colleges for their undergraduate. Not that this doesn’t happen, but I have found it to be fairly rare, even among people who weren’t happy with their undergraduate education.
@cptofthehouse It is not always true that education at a private colleges is not affordable for most students, What is true is that education at a private colleges, which they deem to be ranked high enough, is too expensive. A kid who is accepted to Amherst can attend Beloit for a lot less, since they will get a good chunk of merit aid. A kid whose family is in the 70th-90th percentile or so whose parents have not saved a lot of money, who has been accepted to Yale, likely cannot afford it. However, there is a very good chance that the same student would get a good chunk of merit funding at CWRU, for example. So there are private colleges which they could afford, just not the ones which they consider to be their “dream schools”.
Full pay family here. My D20 got a lot of merit money from Chapman ( you might add it to your list if you go to CA to look at other schools you mentioned) and USF. LMU gave quite a bit but not as much as the other two. Santa Clara gave us a small amount of merit money. In general, I don’t think SCU gives as much.
My kid turned down merit-offers at Smith, Scripps and other LACs for UW, is happy with her choice. Now in grad school. Other kid attends Whitman with merit funds. Both ended up in the same quantitative majors, targeting the same sub area for grad school. Not bio.
Things to consider
Marching Band is an amazing experience at UW. It can define your college years.
At UW it is hard to take classes outside side of your major, except for the large intro lecture classes, usually not well-taught. (Lot’s of bad classes) That makes it hard to explore different areas if you are not sure what major you want. It can be difficult to change majors. The Honors College (highly recommend) and a few freshman seminars can help some but not the same as an LAC.
The UW honors college has merit scholarships, even full-tuition. Classes in honors college are the things professors really want to teach, so they are well-taught in small format. Students are more intellectually curious. I know the honors quant classes have a reputation for being competitive but you can avoid those & sub in something interesting like astronomy or evolutionary biology. However the honors classes serve as distribution credits and cannot be replaced by AP credits. (like most LACs)
In impacted majors at UW, the pre req courses can be brutally competitive and many students don’t get into their majors. Many majors take a few direct admit students as incoming freshman. For certain majors it is not worth the risk unless you are a direct admit.
The opportunities for research at UW are unparalleled. My UW kid did research year-round for 3 1/2 years including publishing. UW has better opportunities to build relationships with top research professors to get a better feel for what a research career is like, get mentors, help with grad school connections. Though the student has to make it happen by contacting labs, sending resume, reading their papers, asking for opportunities. At Whitman, professors asked kid if they wanted to do research.
My Whitman kid did summer research at UW one summer and Fred Hutch another summer on top of 2 years of Whitman research. At Whitman research is available but limited topics because of smaller departments.
Whitman helps students get REU’s. UW does not.
Both kids also did industry internships to see what that was like. UW had industry recruiters in contact with students all the time. Whitman doesn’t.
Whitman kid has had excellent teaching for every class. Very easy to explore different areas just for fun or to change majors. More intellectually curious classmates than UW. More focused on sending kids to grad school, fewer connections to industry. Easier to develop relationships with profs. Easier to get recs.
Both Schools have excellent bio departments.
Finally, grad school is paid for through grants, but having left over 529 $ helps with housing expenses.
I think you can have a great experience at either school. It is definitely a different experience. If she’s leaning toward UW, I say go for it. Especially with marching band.
Thanks for the FABULOUS run-down Your experience and comments are super useful. I think where we are at right now is D21 has UW as her more or less 1st choice and is considering various LACs as alternatives to UW. We have visited Reed, Puget Sound, and Lewis & Clark and of the three she probably liked Puget Sound the best. We have yet to visit Whitman because of Covid. We also hope to visit a few CA schools like Occidental and Santa Clara as well as Gonzaga.
We will probably just go do a self-guided driving tour of these schools late in the summer even if they don’t formally open up. Just to see them. At least poke around the campuses on our own and get a sense of what they look like.
If she wants a big university experience, UW is clearly head and shoulders above the other options here in the Pacific Northwest. WSU, UO, OSU, and WWU are all a step down.
If she wants a smaller school LAC experience then the decision becomes tougher. UPS, L&C and Whitman all do merit aid of some sort. Reed does not. So that is a factor. But we haven’t applied to any of them yet so don’t know how merit aid will shake out. UPS is probably the sweet spot in terms of location. Far enough from home to be a new city, but easily reachable by Amtrak if she doesn’t want to mess with a car. We have lots of family in both Portland and Seattle so that is good.
We had a visit to the UW honors college scheduled in early March that was canceled because of Covid. We’ve been on the campus a bunch (I went to grad school there) but haven’t investigated the honors college yet.
Your comments are very helpful.