<p>I have a brilliant kid (now 25) who is a non-conformist. Would have gotten a 4.0 (non-weighted) in high school if he had done the home work (of which a percentage of the grade was based on); since he didn’t, he was that 3.4 kid, but got A’s on every test and every paper. National Merit Scholar. A pure musician who does not read music (again, that conformist thing) but can listen to a tune once and pick it up immediately. Could he hold his own in a debate with the elitists at the Ivy league schools? Not a problem. Would he have wanted to go to an Ivy? No way, he’d say too conformist. </p>
<p>So, the answer to the question of whether the Ivies should seek out these kids? I’d say no, simply because these non-conformists, if they truly fit into that category, would thumb their noses at the thought of attending such an institution.</p>
<p>Wow, this sounds unbelievably smug. Sounds like the archetypal “lazy genius” who can’t account for their behavior. Guess what, it’s not “brilliance” that matters in the real world, but hard work. And being able to read music is conformist? Way to insult centuries of development on one of the west’s most brilliant cultural achievements, as well as to insult tons of hardworking musicians. You also bring up a fairly meaningless achievement your son earned more than five years ago when he was in high school. (And I was a NMS too) Isn’t doing well on standardized tests a little conformist, you think? And I am super skeptical of anyone who describes themselves as nonconformist. They turn out to be some of the most weirdly judgmental people I’ve seen. I bet your son is actually a swell guy, but you make him sound like the opposite.</p>
<p>And real life is NOT about working equally hard at everything. It’s about prioritizing. All things are not, and cannot be, equally important. The most successful people manage their time strategically to allow the most commitment to the things they care about most, or that offer the most ROI, or whatever. A kid who is composing sonatas after school or making a claymation movie or building a robot does not want to give up that precious time to work on meaningless worksheets for health class–especially if he/she understands the material and will do “well enough” anyway.</p>
<p>No one is suggesting that Ivy League schools should admit unconventional brilliant people who don’t apply and don’t want to attend them. But it’s painting with a very broad brush to suggest that there are no unconventional brilliant people who want to go to Harvard and could benefit from going there.</p>
I wouldn’t say this is smug, exactly, but I have to ask: why would Harvard want to admit a person like this? If he didn’t do his homework in high school, he probably won’t do it in college either–and guess what? College classes have homework, including some you might prefer not to do. If he can’t read music, he’s not going to be much help to most of the musical ensembles on campus. Of course, he might have some special achievement that would make Harvard want him despite these problems, but these are going to be problems.</p>
<p>No, of course not, and I certainly didn’t. I spent a bit too much time informative reading articles online or teaching myself how to arrange music or whatever instead of doing my homework, and it showed in my GPA. I think I’m definitely one of the “smart but lazy” people. But I’m so sick and tired of the “I’m brilliant but society is oppressing me” attitude. It reeks of entitlement. And then looking down on other people because they’re not as “brilliant” as you. And I find it confusing as to why many people complain that school rewards hard work and dedication. It’s all an incredibly unhealthy attitude. </p>
<p>And add the whole “my kid is so great because he doesn’t read CONFORMIST music” and it’s unbelievably annoying to me.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>No one is entitled to get a Harvard education. If you want it, you have to deserve it in some way or fashion, and you have to be able to handle the academic aspect of it. I came into school with incredibly bad study skills (don’t we all?) and I found myself buried under of work I wasn’t prepared to handle. I’ve seen lots of people on this board denigrate Harvard’s education quality, but surely it’s not doable by everyone.</p>
<p>^ Completely agree. I was doing college level math in 7th grade, which doesn’t qualify as genius but is fairly accelerated. I also do not have the best study habits, but I accepted that grades are a function of both intelligence AND work ethic. Complaining because you don’t look as smart to adcoms or HR because you didn’t put in the effort is silly. When I teach my little brother to play chess, the hardest part to drill into him is to take every opponent seriously. He can compete at high ELO ratings, then lose to someone rated 900 and throw a fit. You don’t get anywhere with that kind of attitude. If you beat the Packers and lose to the Browns, you’re only a 1-1 team. And yes, the 2-0 team that beat both IS ranked higher than you, even if your mommy thinks you’re special.</p>
<p>Plus, I always felt that if you were truly brilliant, the work that takes someone else an hour should only take you 10-15 minutes, right?</p>
<p>Chaosakit, first off, my son is a great guy, far different from me, and it took me many years to learn that the “real world”, as you put it, looks far different in his eyes than mine. As for his not reading music, the point simply was that he doesn’t need to. He can compose a piece in his head and never write it down nor care to because it is his. Get it? Not dissing composers or any other musicians as they are incredibly talented people who bring joy to the world through their creations, perhaps yourself included. </p>
<p>As for him doing well on Standardized Tests and that being conformist somehow, well, no, it’s not. He never studied for the tests, didn’t take classes on how to take the SAT or ACT, nor cared to. He simply scored very high based on both his innate intelligence and his ability to pick things up quickly. </p>
<p>Hunt, as to your statement, why would Harvard want a person like my son? They wouldn’t. Conversely, he wouldn’t want Harvard, which, apparently you find appalling in some way?</p>
<p>I’m confused (albeit late to the discussion as well). Top colleges accept unconventionally brilliant kids every year. My own college does it all the time and I recommend several on interview reports. That’s never been an issue, especially as admissions committees have stopped using test scores as the primary litmus test - but rather have taken a balanced approach to the student’s entire resume/portfolio.</p>
<p>Having said that - based on the comment about the son acing his tests but not doing the homework – I’ve seen those kids too and they don’t do well in structured environments and sometimes don’t do well with other students. The unwillingness to adapt to some of the college requirements (i.e. won’t do the homework) is they key for why a lot of schools would turn that student down.</p>
<p>In the alternative, if you’re really interested in being college bound - you should look for a school whose coursework closely matches his interests and has a flexible learning/classroom environment. Otherwise, maybe college isn’t the right place for him. Because - frankly - working for onesself, or working for another person/company is still about willingness to do the “day to day” work. Life isn’t about just showing up for the “test.”</p>
I don’t find it appalling at all. My point is (I think) the same as yours: some kids don’t fit at Harvard. If they’re not conformist enough to do what success at Harvard requires, they shouldn’t go there–or want to go there–and we shouldn’t shed any tears about it.</p>
<p>I think “won’t do the homework” has to be evaluated in the context of the actual homework. This varies widely from school to school, and even from teacher to teacher within the same school.</p>
<p>One can’t really assess this based on experiences that are limited to a few districts. The length of time required for the homework varies considerably; the level of thought required for the homework varies considerably; the extent of independent work (i.e., outside the textbook and class notes) varies considerably.</p>
<p>The relative level of the tests to the homework also varies considerably. In some classes, the tests are actually not as challenging as the homework. In other classes, the homework is essentially drill for the tests. In a few cases, the tests may be harder than the homework, because the homework is intended to establish a basic level of understanding, and the tests go beyond that.</p>
<p>It is really not possible to make any blanket statements or predictions about the college experiences of a student who doesn’t do homework in high school (particularly a boy–not to be sexist about it–obviously a stereotype, but with a kernel of general validity).</p>
<p>If they are that brilliant, why would they need a college education in the first place? Since you don’t need a degree to write or paint, and they are that noticeably brilliant, it wouldn’t matter.</p>
<p>clonetox, I believe if they are in the visual or performing arts that may be the case. My son is in both and his real job is in Graphic Design which pays the bills. I should note that he learned far more with regards to Graphic Design from on-the-job training and it didn’t cost him anything (other than a lower salary due to his inexperience).</p>
<p>Hunt, I think it is a matter of semantics regarding the word “unconventional”. My son definitely is a non-conformist, which may be slightly different, but is also quite unconventional, at least through the eyes of his father .</p>
<p>MITalum, I think, to a degree, you are spot on. My son did prefer a different learning environment but really is quite social and can carry on a conversation at the highest levels of learning (he is a voracious reader and a very, very deep thinker). Frankly, if he was inclined, which he certainly isn’t at this stage in his life, he would be a great Philosophy Professor.</p>
<p>I agree, I recently got rejected from my dream school to students who had higher ACT scores. I applied to a well known journalism school and have had years upon years of journalism experience, yet I guess the higher stats won out.</p>
<p>I was recently accepted ED to Cornell to study Fine Arts. My stats were far below average, but I had a wonderful portfolio, interview, and recommendations. I believe they are going to have me come to campus (expenses paid) and catch up on coursework over the summer. I have a friend who had a similar experience with UChicago. I would’ve loved to go to Yale as well, but did not apply because my chances were far too low.</p>
<p>I completely agree with what compmom has to say in post #37. I was quite a lopsided applicant but was able to show enough interest and fit for Cornell. As compmom said, many of my classmates, however, are interested in art schools and do not take interest in more “elite” schools due to lack of interest or lack of understanding of the admissions process.</p>
<p>I stand with intparent (post 9). The unconventionally brilliant often won’t apply to Ivies, or if they do it is under pressure with little hope of being accepted. Much as we like to think admissions are more holistic, they aren’t.
The person who is brilliant in world languages but score a 400 on the maths SAT and failed chemistry just isn’t as appealing as the person with scores of 700+ and no failing grades. We see potential for the better scorer, even if the lower scorer does become a Nobel Prize winner or the like.
Additionally, problems arise for those talented in things like world languages or grammatical editing because there aren’t areas to put that sort of thing. Your application must be filled out in English; excellent grammar is nearly expected, so your abilities as an editor are never seen. However, there are visual art and music supplements and places to put down skill in sport. The ideas we are lofting for well-rounded, successful, desirable and intellectual aren’t particularly accurate.
Back to the not applying to Ivies bit I originally started with: I say that from my own experience and that of my friends. My SAT score of 2030 and 4.3 weighted GPA don’t put me in the position to make it into an Ivy League. I’ve never had straight A’s, the closest I came was an A in everything but Chemistry sophomore year. The praise I receive from teachers centres on my vocabulary, love of languages and general ability to be a walking encyclopaedia. Yet, I have no place to put that on a application. My highest grades throughout high school were in German, but the fact that my school doesn’t offer AP German while my school system does makes me seem like I’m not striving for the most challenging classes. That I resumed French after not having studied it for five years doesn’t matter, it’s that I ended up with a final grade of a B and was in level 4 honours instead of 5 AP as a senior. The fact that my B in Chemistry was due to loss of participation points from frequent absences doesn’t show up on my transcript, so my actual understanding and love of the subject is lost (I started out senior year in AP Chemistry, but had to drop the class because I was sick too often and was making up at least two labs and a test every week).
As for my friends, only one got into an Ivy League, and she’s the one who was home-schooled and lives in Kansas. Her A’s and completion of every class available to her is not the same as those of someone from a top public school in Texas or the DC Metro area. Her 4.0 balances out her 2050 SAT; her inordinate amount of time spent on robotics team and Girl Scouts (though she didn’t go for the Gold or Silver Awards) is because she had no real classes left to take after age 15. After she got into Harvard she literally did nothing for homeschool stuff, because there was no need to make it look like she was doing anything anymore.
Those friend who didn’t get into the Ivies, Stanford and MIT? They are brilliant too, just not in such a way that they had fantastic test scores and a bunch of community involvement in addition to their one area. Those friends are now at JHU, Rice, Smith and Goucher. Those are still excellent schools (and I don’t think anyone could argue against that for JHU), the just happen to be a bit more accepting of not having superb numbers in every category in addition to an individual area of brilliance.</p>
.</p>