<p>If you follow the link in post 21, it will bring you to the ERIC abstract of this study. The author of this study, Thomas Espenshade, also wrote, No Longer Separate, Not Yet Equal: Race and Class in Elite College Admission and Campus Life .</p>
<p>It won’t forecast the outcome for any student in particular. In general, from my quick reading, the more competitive your high school (that is, the higher the SAT score and number of APs), the smaller the chance of elite college admission for comparable students, EXCEPT for the students at the very top of the pile. So, when given, class rank makes a huge difference. </p>
<p>HOWEVER, when the schools are known to be elite and academically demanding, that class rank advantage/disadvantage seems weaker, or less likely to apply. Thus, the sophisticated admissions officers know that the top prep schools are frog ponds stocked with sharks, if I can adapt their metaphor. </p>
<p>The study authors received ALL the data from three elite universities (unnamed) for ALL their students in certain years. The study is thus limited in that they worked backwards from admission. They are comparing students who were admitted to the field of students who applied, but they aren’t comparing admitted students to every student in the original high schools.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>DAndrew and Classicalmama make excellent points. I would simply add (A) that parental dissatisfaction about college admission is a universal phenomenon not limited to top prep schools and (B) that most public schools, not just rural ones, have woefully inadequate college admission counseling because of budgetary constraints.</p></li>
<li><p>In my experience, it is impossible to satisfy helicopter parents, whether one is the coach of a travel soccer team or the Head of College Counseling at a top prep school. Hence, the fact that certain parents complain that their child got into Princeton instead of Harvard should not obscure the fact that top prep schools have dedicated college counselors who do remarkably good jobs.</p></li>
<li><p>Top prep schools such as Andover and Exeter have a significantly larger group of big frogs in a big pond. As DAndrew observes, 60%+ of Andover graduates go on to great colleges (top 25 universities and top 15 LACs) and 80% to good colleges (top 50 universities and top 25 LACs). </p></li>
<li><p>Students at top prep schools do not get into elite colleges only because they are rich and have connections. For example, something like 50% of the students at Andover and Exeter are on financial aid. And being a rich prep school student isnt an admission advantage at the Ivies, MIT, and Stanford because these schools are need-blind. <a href=“http://tuitionfreecolleges.mtnhome.org/wp-content/uploads/need-blind-colleges-universities-list.pdf[/url]”>http://tuitionfreecolleges.mtnhome.org/wp-content/uploads/need-blind-colleges-universities-list.pdf</a>. The simple truth is that virtually no one gets into an elite university without earning it.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Back to OP’s question, are you “better off” in a less competitive school? Well it’s easier to get a better class ranking in a less competitive school. But remember all schools are not equal in terms of percentage of graduates attending elite colleges, which at least cancels out some of that effect. Is it easier to be among the top 15% of a 300 student class in Andover or is it easier to be among 5% of a 100 student class in a less competitive BS? It’s a judgement call. I said earlier that a competitive public school is the best bet based on the assumption that in PS there are fewer students with various “hooks”, but even that assumption is not reliable as we know in upper middle class neighborhoods many parents do choose to let their kids stay in their the PS that can steadily send kids to elite colleges every year. </p>
<p>What am I saying? As many people have pointed out, HYP is crapshoot anywhere. Do you want to turn down the opportunity of attending a top BS for a possible slight advantage in college admissions 3/4 years down the road? Most top BS students do end up in great colleges after all. To me, it’s a “no brainer” but if you have doubt about the overall value of a top BS education it’s another story. Why bother paying hefty tuition, sending your 15 year old away from home and end up hurting his college chances? There gotta be something a lot more important you’d want to sacrifice all that for.</p>
<p>@pickaboo. It is rude for any parent to think that paying 200k for BS is buying admission to whatever college they feel junior should go to. Does not work like that. Thank heavens.</p>
<p>OP, et. al.</p>
<p>Regardless of college outcome the acronym schools pretty much assure that DC graduates with superb writing, math and reasoning skills. They develop the ability to analyze and organize, think critically, participate in discussions and manage their time and priorities. They go into college with better academic preparation for life than many students have when they leave college. There is significant faculty and school support, so it is more difficult to fail or be overwhelmed than at college. </p>
<p>That is the reason to pick the most rigorous school that is within your DC’s ability (both academic and emotional). Some kids thrive in the “pressure cooker” others are better at schools where there is less rigor and where they can be a bigger fish in the pond. But it should be about the best HS experience, not where they end up going next.</p>
<p>I suspect that many magnet schools such as Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology (TJHSST) and Illinois Mathematics and Science Academy (IMSA) are probably more “pressue cookers” than top Boarding Schools. Anyone had direct experience?</p>
<p>I’m just going to jump in here for a random second. When I first decided to apply to schools, I only wanted to apply to Andover, Exeter, Lawrenceville, St. Pauls, Deerfield and Hotchkiss. I used my naive logic to reason that I wanted to be academically challenged, and since I am a really good student, I would only be challenged at schools with <25% acceptance rates. However, I started to get nervous about my chances for admission, so I knocked off a few of my initial schools and visited Blair, The Hill School, and St. George’s. They are by no means easy to get into, but in my mind, they were “safety” schools. When I visited, though, I realized that the academics are on par with the academics at “top-tier” schools. Although they are less renowned by some, I would feel honored to even be considered for acceptance.</p>
<p>What I’m trying to say is that whatever school I go to, whether competitive or “slightly less competitive,” the academics are going to be phenomenal, and I will be prepared for college. That’s what these schools are all about. And some may be concerned about going to a “HADES” type school (I hate that term, by the way), due to the influx of bright kids that might overshadow them, the truth is, there are going to be incredibly smart, talented, athletic, well-rounded students wherever you go. People have to learn how to deal with that, and decide on a school based on fit rather than intimidation or societal pressures.</p>
<p>I think it comes down to what is your overarching goal:
to position your child for their best chance at entrance to an Ivy, with the belief that an Ivy education will best position them for a successful life.
to give your child a high school environment that helps them grow and develop into their best self, with the belief that where they attend college is a secondary concern.</p>
<p>Of course there are many, many other reasons that parents support sending their children to boarding school besides these two. My belief is that the personal growth and development that occurs in the high school years is in many ways more critical to potential life success than what happens in the college years. </p>
<p>For me, the best school is one that provides an environment where my child can experience academic challenge, learn new skills and gain knowledge. But most important, I want my child to develop character - the ability to overcome challenge and even failure, to gain insight and empathy, to test their mettle emotionally, socially, intellectually. I want my child to graduate from boarding school with competence, but also with confidence, and the ability to thrive in college and beyond.</p>
<p>Can ACRONYM schools provide this? Yes. But so do many, many other schools (including less-competitive boarding schools and public schools). It all comes down to that elusive idea of fit, and also to the community of each school - that mix of peers and faculty that will help shape each individual student.</p>
<p>I’m totally with you, mountainhiker. I was talking to my science teacher, and he was telling me how his daughter attended Penn State because they didn’t have the money to pay for a private university. However, she got a great undergraduate education there, took a year abroad in Haiti where she met her husband, and then got accepted to Harvard to get her graduate degree on almost full scholarship.</p>
The question is when more than one options are available to you, what would you choose? When you have a good PS, are you applying to BS? When you have offers from top BS and less competitive ones, which do you choose? That’s when you have to make the judgement call and more importantly find your own balance.</p>
<p>I agree Exie. I would also add that 4 years seems like not much time to an ancient, relic like myself but to a 14 year old it looks like forever. And, in reality, if a student graduates at 18 and he/she has spent 4 years at BS it will have been 22.2% of his/her lifetime attending the school. There is nowhere I would spend over 1/5th of my life unless I was happy being there. So my vote is for the school that fits a child best for content of education and contentment of child (be it ACRONYM, Public, Religious, Day, etc).</p>
<p>@all: excellent thread. I really enjoyed reading many of these posts…</p>
<p>I wonder if the campus-based experience factors in some marginal way in the college admissions process. College admissions folks do not live under rocks and must certainly be aware of the dominating efforts of some “tiger parents” who attempt to oversee and control many aspects of their DC day-to-day educational experience. Proofreading essays and peeking into a bedroom to ensure the history book is open is not a luxury afforded to BS parents. If my DS runs out of toiletries, he must throw his sneakers, head to strip mall and purchase what he needs. He cannot rely on me to swing by CVS on his behalf when he finds himself in a pinch.</p>
<p>While they’re not yet college students, in general, BS kids undertake much more in the way of academic time management and general life management requirements than their day school counterparts. This occurs across all levels of the BS competitive landscape. If I were to assign a name to this soft metric, I’d call it the ‘Campus Survivability Factor’. Do colleges get this?</p>
<p>I fully agree that attending a top tier BS is NOT just about getting into HYPS. </p>
<p>But students who do decide to go to one of the ACRONYM schools should be prepared to deal with a high likelihood of being in the bottom 80% and understand the ramifications of that.</p>
<p>GMTplus7, so was that your main point to start this thread? It is true though, just as true as one needs to deal with the likelihood of being in the bottom 95% in a not competitive school or bottom 99% of a PS.</p>
<p>DAndrew, the** kids with aspirations to go to the top BS’s are not used to being in the bottom.
**
My intention is not to be a ■■■■■, but to kick off a discussion about what other qualities a top school can offer to a student, if not a place in the top 20%.</p>
<p>Yes, GMTplus7, I agree with you. While I understand that it is a fact of life these kids and these kids in particular should learn and face sooner or later - that there’s a big world out there and you won’t always be in top 20%, I do sometimes doubt if it is too early to strip away their “dreams”. But when is a perfect time for that? In that elite college when they <em>have to</em> jump into the big pond and become small fish finally?</p>
<p>^^Just my repeated play for focusing on the individual over the institution; teach your children well. If you support your kid in becoming an “elite” kid in terms of their ability to navigate the vicissitudes of life with grit & grace, BS or PS, HYPSM or (the so often maligned here) Stonehill College, your offspring will have the abilities necessary to “meet with a success unexpected in common hours.” And for those of us with multiple children: they’re individuals, you can’t just stamp’em out off a family production line.</p>
<p>I’m a middle class white boy who wants to find a great eductation. My public system is far below my standards, so I’ve been taking classes at a local college.I’d be relying on a scholarship to got to any of these places. My goal in life is not to go to Harvard. It’s to learn at my own pace about interesting things. Thats the appeal of BS.</p>