Are you part of the Gibson-middle class?

<p>[Class</a> Matters - Social Class in the United States of America - The New York Times](<a href=“Class Matters - Social Class in the United States of America - The New York Times”>Class Matters - Social Class in the United States of America - The New York Times)</p>

<p>I spent a few days in Santa Barbara earlier this month. Very nice. I don’t know if I agree with Eddie Vedders comment that " the world is a dark and scary place compared to Santa Barbara & no wonder you all are so *&^%ing happy", but it certainly felt like a vacation spot. :)</p>

<p>I don’t usually in my head divide people into classes.
There are people who have formal education and those who don’t. People who have food/shelter/clothing, and those who don’t. People who like to be surrounded with material wealth, and those who don’t.
I do find that those who I do consider " upper class" are those who have manners, despite how much money they have. Oftentimes those who have been raised with LOTS of money for generations, do have very good manners.
I also am talking about their behavior with those who have less money/education/material goods, not just that they know when and how to use all those forks. ;)</p>

<p>From a"middle class" NE suburb here, just anecdotal but sure happens all over.
It’s not what you make it is what you keep.</p>

<p>One of my kids went to a "clothing’ party the other evening, why I let her go I’ll never know, but anyway, gave her $20 and she brought $10 of her own.</p>

<p>One kid at said party, parents 3,000 sq ft home, built 2 years ago,over built in a modest neighboorhood of 1500 sq ft homes. Above home is now in forclosure, property taxes on above are 24K a year. </p>

<p>This child had $200 in her pocket, spent $160 of it on a sweat suit. Could be her birthday money who knows yet the value of a dollar is not exhibited to the next generation.
We have adequate income, in want of nothing, have had 8 years of 10K-15K unreimbursed medical expenses for one of our children, one parent working up until last year, decided to do public school instead of private.</p>

<p>We can afford to pay full state tuition out of savings/income for all 4 of our kids, anything above state is up to our kids to get the grades to earn merit money, so far so good.</p>

<p>Have friends whining and griping about paying college tuition, can’t understand how we can, and they can’t.
They forgot all the winter break ski trips/Vegas/Florida trips/cars for their 16 year olds they opted to do that we didn’t. </p>

<p>Again not what you make it is what you keep. </p>

<p>We live near a town of “old money” they dress/live modestly, drive/own their cars, no new cars every 4 years. They have money coming out their ears, and they KEEP IT.</p>

<p>“in America, an income of $200,000 is NOT … I repeat, NOT … “middle” anything. I do not care how big your neighbor’s house is.”</p>

<p>Sorry but nothing is absolute. Said before and will say again. Hubby and I are white trash who work incredible hours at multiple jobs, seven days a week, to have had that income for a couple of years. There is nothing rich or upper about us. It’s just a different choice at a specific point in our lives. Other people on CC could stock shelves in a supermarket overnight as my husband does but choose not to. I don’t judge them for not doing it, but we are by no stretch of the imagination rich. Just willing to do whatever it takes to put our kids through college and grateful to have the opportunity and the strong backs.</p>

<p>Zoosermom, I am just convinced that you cannot get people in other parts of the country to understand this. My BIL has lived in the south for over 15 years. His property taxes for a good deal of that time were well under $1500 per year. I don’t know his exact property tax to date, but if it is a lot, is is still under 3k. He was laughing at the high property taxes that we have had to pay since we have lived in our area. You just cannot compare. A higher income is just required for a similar standard of living.</p>

<p>See, this is what kills me. Here everyone is arguing about what’s middle class and what’s not - and the amount we’ve chosen to argue about is $200K vs
40K, more or less. Yet I mention the hedge fund manager who made $3 billion in 2007, and no one seemed to notice. </p>

<p>Rather than argue about who’s middle class or not (and we’ve already shown that middle income in one part of the country can be different in another part of the country) - why aren’t we as a society arguing about a living wage? Continue to argue that we’re middle, and those families that make 200K, well they’re rich. While people with $300,000 could go bankrupt tomorrow if their child needs a bone marrow transplant that the insurance company refuses to pay for.</p>

<p>Why is it that a CEO can get a multi-million dollar raise for improving the bottom line of the company by laying off workers? How creative is that? Did it take a lot of business acumen to figure that one out? And then he/she gets fired the next year because the underlying business model is screwed up, and their margin doesn’t improve the next year. But the CEO leaves with the multi-million bonus he got last year, plus millions more in severance pay.</p>

<p>Why is it that a person working 40 hours a week at a regular job, is not earning a living wage? I always used to think that an honest day’s labor should get an honest paycheck. But the difference between the guy at the top and the guy at the bottom is getting wider and wider every day. </p>

<p>Why do we continue to give tax breaks to corporations which move their headquarters to Bermuda or Dubai? I don’t get it. </p>

<p>So go ahead and continue to argue about who’s middle class and who’s rich, while the country continues on its way to eventually having the hugely rich and the abjectly poor, with India becoming our true middle class.</p>

<p>[Via</a> the Wall Street Journal](<a href=“http://online.wsj.com/article/SB113513427028228173.html?mod=opinion&ojcontent=otep]Via”>http://online.wsj.com/article/SB113513427028228173.html?mod=opinion&ojcontent=otep): </p>

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<p>“Zoosermom, I am just convinced that you cannot get people in other parts of the country to understand this. My BIL has lived in the south for over 15 years”</p>

<p>we’ve made a trade-off that, to be honest, has almost destroyed our marriage. In order for my hubby to have his gold-plated-retirement-at-54, we are contractually obligated to reside in NYC, which means the long, hard hours (and monstrous commute for me) to be able to have a home and educate our kids. If we could have gotten the heck out of here, I would have been long gone. I don’t think the effort is worth it, and it annoys/amuses me when people call us rich because, trust me on this, we’re just getting by here and wouldn’t be if we didn’t work so many hours. The great irony would be if he took that stupendous retirement and moved to a better lifestyle while I’m stuck working here till I’m 70.</p>

<p><a href=“%5Burl=http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1060241108-post105.html]#105[/url]”>quote</a> See, this is what kills me. Here everyone is arguing about what’s middle class and what’s not - and the amount we’ve chosen to argue about is $200K vs 40K, more or less. Yet I mention the hedge fund manager who made $3 billion in 2007, and no one seemed to notice.

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<p>A provocative question for your consideration: What is keeping you from doing what the hedge fund manager did? Is anything/anyone keeping anyone of us from striving for and achieving the same level of success?</p>

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<p>Again, what, if anything, is keeping an individual from pursuing a living wage without a government social policy? If a living wage position is advertised and requires skills ‘X,Y,Z’ what is keeping an individual from obtaining skills ‘X,Y,Z’?</p>

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<p>What is keeping you, or anyone else for that matter, from becoming a CEO with all the benfits (and baggage) associated with the position?</p>

<p>Are the solutions to the ‘ills’ you describe only addressable by government policy, or is self-interest, self-sufficiency and initiative a viable alternative?</p>

<p>StitchInTime, that’s an article from over two years ago. Compare that with WSJ’s report last week showing that in inflation-adjusted terms, income for the bottom 90% of US incomes has declined by 4%, if I’m remembering correctly. As you ascend into the different strata of the top 10% (10 to 5%, 5 to 1%, 1 to .1%, .1 to .01%, and the tippy top .01% itself), the income change goes positive, and increases, going from around a 1% increase to a 20-something increase. That’s without considering capital gains. It’s just income. Blows my mind. I kept looking at the bar graphs showing to scale the different average incomes in the different categories they’d described, and just kept shaking my head. </p>

<p>Yet another illustration of differences in cost of living in different areas of the country: Yesterday’s WSJ compared what housing you could buy for $400k in different parts of the country. Bloomington, Indiana: a 4500 square foot 4 or 5 bedroom house on, I believe, 2 acres. NYC (Upper West Side, but still): a 400 square foot apartment. But there WAS a doorman and granite countertops. :slight_smile: Obviously, no one making $40k a year is or should be buying either of these. But I’d bet that you can have a household income of $40k in Bloomington and be able to buy something.</p>

<p>Oh, and that same Personal Finance section had an article on college financing. Of interest to the Gibsonites, apparently there is a little wriggle room on applying for FA at HYPetc if your income just nudges past the ceilings each school has announced this year.</p>

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<p>Zoosermom, I understand that completely.</p>

<p>And yet, I live here in Northern Jersey on half that income. Comfortably. I’m not sure where the disconnect is, but it’s gotta be somewhere.</p>

<p>garland,</p>

<p>That’s impossible. You must be BMW-starved at the very least.</p>

<p>I do not dispute that there are people in certain areas of the country for whom the $100-200k annual salary isn’t exactly a lot. However, what I am trying to point out is this … you are still in the top maybe 10% of all wage earners in this entire country (perhaps a smaller percentage, even) … and because the population is especially dense in expensive, urban areas, I’ll bet there are many, many earning far less than you earn even in your general area. So even if it seems “middle,” it isn’t. The numbers don’t lie. The VAST majority of people in our country earn less than the people in this income range. THAT is why it’s not middle. Yes, you work hard & have less than many to show for your money due to your area of the country. I understand that. But so many earn even less than you do. That’s all I’m saying.</p>

<p>Here are 2 different families in NYC: </p>

<p>I know a guy in NYC who inherited his mother’s apartment. It was under rent control and still is. He moved in with mom right out of college and has stayed there ever since. His rent is very low. He also was left a huge inheritance. He earns little for someone residing in NYC (works for less than 40k in a home for the disabled) and is very happy in NYC, but this is not everyone’s experience. </p>

<p>Zoozermom has a completely different situation. I wonder whose efc would be higher?</p>

<p>BTW, the guy I was describing doesn’t have children, so college does not need funding and he won’t have an efc.</p>

<p>UCLari–you are correct–no BMW here, or big inheritance. Somehow, we soldier on. With a house (not a rent-controlled apartment), cars, security, and comfort, a stone’s throw from NYC (and I can promise that the property taxes here are higher than they are in NYC.) Again, on half of 200K, and that’s working two jobs for me, plus my H’s.</p>

<p>garland,</p>

<p>How do you do it? I mean, living without a BMW? Or at least a Lexus? It sounds like abject POVERTY to me. POVERTY, I SAY!</p>

<p>Look, Stitch, maybe that CEO/Bond Trader whatever the heck isn’t good so much as lucky. In my business, luck has a whole lot to do with success. I know a lot of good writers (better than me by a long shot) who just never got that great manuscript on the right desk at the right moment and it wasn’t for want of effort. There are phenomenons in every business…Tiger Woods and J.K. Rowling come to mind…</p>

<p>Bond traders and such have their place in this world but not everyone aspires to shove numbers around all day. Money brings misery as often as it brings happiness…check out the Curse of the Lottery. There’s an awful lot of fabulously rich people out there who have had multiple ugly divorces, never talk to their children, and are unhappy, lonely, arrogant people. Maybe that’s the price they pay for their wealth…I’m not willing to trade for it.</p>

<p>From 2005 NY times:</p>

<p>Manhattan’s highest-income census tract is a six-square-block rectangle bounded by Fifth and Park Avenues and East 56th and 59th Streets. The median household income in this mostly commercial section of East Midtown is $188,697 (average family income is $875,267); none of the residents identified themselves as black; nearly one-third have advanced degrees and more than one in three are foreign born. Even there, though, the poverty rate is 16 percent. </p>

<p>Note: the median income</p>

<p>“And yet, I live here in Northern Jersey on half that income. Comfortably. I’m not sure where the disconnect is, but it’s gotta be somewhere”</p>

<p>we’ve only been making this money for three years. for the first 15 years of our marriage my husband made less than 20k, which I’ve posted before. I also have posted before that two years ago my MIL’s final illness and arrangements decimated our savings. I’d be curious about your mortgage/house. Have you owned yours a long time? Us only four years because we wanted a permanent home to live in after all those years of marriage.</p>

<p>We have been in our (first) house for 17 years. It was supposed to be a starter house, but staying in it saved us money, as did lack of repairs, and after the four room apt over the pizzeria that the kids started out in, it didn’t seem so bad. We paid off the mortgage ahead of time, through current earnings. I guess I’d still ask, since your income seems to have been so much lower in the past, I would think that such a large increase would lead to feeling pretty comfortable, wouldn’t it?</p>