Are you willing to pay or loan for the expensive ivy or top 20 schools instead of cheap state Univ.?

Parents Forum
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Again, there are a large number of colleges outside the top 20 where a student will kind intellectual peers. They may be harder to find at a public U ranked in the 80s than at CalTech or MIT but they will be there. Many kids are bored by freshman pre-req classes but are certainly challenged by upper level courses. If the major is something “light” that may be a different story. There are schools that I wouldn’t send a very bright student, especially very small, local colleges.

Some kids have unrealistic salary expectations (know a kid that just lost a job offer over this), but costs are also very high in some areas. If a kid can’t live at home and commute, it can seem overwhelming to find a place to live (even a share) in NYC, San Francisco, or other areas on a starting salary. I don’t know that all salaries have kept up with the cost of living, especially housing and health insurance, in those areas.

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Ditto - exactly what I see among these students. @CardinalBobcat summed up my experiences very well. It’s quite honestly sad to see. It’s also not only intellectually out of place, but also those who aren’t really into Greek life who end up at a heavily Greek college who are out of place. Regret is super common among these folks. It was sad listening to my higher caliber lad’s peer talk about his own college experience at a Top 30 regional U vs my lad at a Top 30 National U. For some students, “free” is not worth it if one can afford elsewhere. He had acceptances and could have gone elsewhere. He wishes he had. The end is the same (both are in med school, albeit, different ones), but the journey and opportunities involved to get there were definitely not.

Many of these students (the academic mindset) come back to school from the higher level college visits with a new “light” insight - telling me they found their tribe (their words that I now use) and super excited to get there.

@ucbalumnus At schools like mine they get through the same way they may later do at the lower level colleges. They’re bored in class and at being asked to help with homework (or tests) all the time. They try to keep their terrific grades to themselves so they don’t feel the negative peer pressure from endless comments. They befriend a teacher or two or if they’re lucky, plus can do homework with another student or two with a similar mindset. They get involved in sports/band/orchestra and/or they likely have a job or club outside of school. They aren’t at all anti-social if that’s what you are thinking. These are the students MORE likely to be thoughtful of the janitorial staff at school, not less. They’re also usually leaders of the clubs, etc. They definitely roll their eyes at the traditional behavior problem kids at school though. They look forward to college where they are told things will be different. When it is different, they’re excited. When they end up at colleges that remind them of high school, they’re disappointed - a dream smothered. That becomes worse when they hear what happens elsewhere.

Absolutely not if the safety was chosen carefully. This assumes every safety has to be a school where the average student attending has a 23/1000 ACT/SAT and there are no decent Honors Colleges or similar at them. While this may be true at a cc, and yes, around us those are disappointing to this type of student - that may vary elsewhere, it’s not true of schools like Pittsburgh. Around us Pitt is the “usual” safety for such students. Some end up going there for their first choice because it’s a really nice school if one wants urban/pre-med, etc, and they offer merit aid for high stats. According to College Board, they have 57% of students with an ACT between 30-36 and 41% between 24-29. That leaves 2% below. 90/91% have above a 600 on each section of the SAT.

One doesn’t have to be at a Top 20 school to find peers. My son’s peer went to a school where 61% have an ACT score lower than 24 and 77/86% lower than a 600 on each section of the SAT. Huge difference. Intellectually there were peers out there somewhere (6% ACT, 2% SAT), but the school wasn’t set up for the majority to be at his level for the classwork and there were very little research opportunities. He ended up researching “what they had” (his words) rather than having his pick of something that would have appealed to him.

If folks have a student who fits the mindset (not all top scoring students do) and have the means to pay something toward college and/or doesn’t mind basic federal debt (not high loan debts), there are usually appropriate safeties that can be found. Start looking at state flagships. Like Pitt, some of these might even end up a first choice as they can be just as good (or better) than many private schools. Pitt is good that it’s rolling admissions so kids know early that they are admitted. I’ve yet to see a top student from our state get denied.

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Everything is relative. For a student who would be in the top of her/his class at Caltech, or MIT, or Harvard, or Stanford, s/he likely won’t feel challenged at most, if not all, honors colleges.

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NYC median household income is $57,782 (with median per capital income $35,761), according to https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/newyorkcitynewyork (also, before NYC public schools gave free lunch to everyone, 72% or something like that students were on free or reduced price lunch). So someone must be living there without Wall Street levels of income.

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Well our in state public is ranked #30, so probably not.

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Somehow, grownups manage to keep a roof over their heads and put shoes on their kids feet working as schoolteachers, firefighters, social workers, etc. even in NYC. (I think SF is much worse). But 22 year old kids don’t want to hear that there are lovely, safe neighborhoods in Queens, Staten Island, or the Bronx where “starting salaries” would allow them to have a roommate (or two) and live in a decent place with enough cash left over at the end of the month to make their school loan payments. They want to live in Park Slope or the East Village in one of the apartments they see on TV (really, Monica and Rachel could afford the Village even back then?).

So yes- unrealistic salary expectations but also unrealistic LIVING expectations. No, you aren’t going to have a doorman in your first apartment in DC or Boston. No, you won’t have in-unit laundry if you insist on Manhattan. And you will not have a dishwasher in a high rent city, at least for the first few years!

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Which is why one has to choose their safety carefully. I fully agree not all Honors Colleges are the same just as all colleges aren’t the same, but a school like Pittsburgh offers a heck of a lot for the right majors and the only reason a student couldn’t do impressive things there or in similar caliber places if they had to attend their safety is if they are so set in their mind that it isn’t good enough for them (self fulfilling prophecy at that point). It’s not the same as someone with a 35/36 ACT heading to the Top 30 regional U. Not even close.

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^There’s a range of quality at public universities, just as there is at private ones. The top public universities are among the nation’s best regarded educational options.

A motivated student can get a good education anywhere, even at a less “illustrious” public or private college. And, with some effort, they also can find like-minded intellectual peers and good professor mentors at the college.

But when comparing a top ranked public or private college with a much lower ranked public or private college, you can expect a difference in the overall number/percentage of high performing students at the college, which will impact the overall intellectual environment of the college in classes, dorms, and dining halls.

That makes sense on paper alone, and anecdotes bear that out. (True, anecdotes are not hard data.) There was an interesting moment this summer that some recent entries on this thread made me think about. Two friends, who had attended the same high school but had just finished their freshman years at different colleges, were hanging out and talking about college. In high school, the kids had been pretty similar. They had had the same exact PSAT score, similar SATs, similar grades. Their parents appear to have similar salaries based on their jobs and houses. One chose a “top” college. The other chose a full-ride (not only tuition, but also room, board, and equipment, for four years) merit scholarship to a solid but not tippy-top private college.

When they talked about their classes and peers, the one kid said he felt he had gotten so much smarter since starting college. The other kid responded, “I think I’ve gotten dumber!” He went on to explain that, although he had friends and was having fun, his class discussions were not stimulating, the level of challenge was below that of his AP classes in high school, and there were not the cool conceptual conversations among peers that were the norm at his friend’s college.

Will this very bright boy at a college filled with average students go on to achieve whatever he wants anyway? In the long run, will he have similar outcomes to those of his friend at the top college? I bet he will! He is awesome and motivated.

But that moment of wistfulness sums up the trade-off that others in this thread are discussing. Sometimes the trade-off is worth it. Only a student and a student’s family can decide. But the trade-off exists.

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Well said, @TheGreyKing .

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This suggests that it may be better to choose larger schools for admission safeties (though admission safeties may not be safeties if competitive merit is needed for affordability). If the student chooses admission safeties where perhaps 5% of the students are similar in academic achievement, then a college with a 10,000 student class will have 500 academic achievement peers, while a college with a 500 student class will have 25 academic achievement peers. The number of such students at the top end of the academic achievement range could affect whether it is worthwhile for the college to offer more rigorous courses for such students (e.g. honors courses, whether or not there is also an honors program).

The same could apply in the other direction to admission reach schools.

This also suggests that parent financial circumstances and choices are a big deal in terms of what the student will experience in college, if the second student had to choose the full ride because his parents did not have the money to send him to a college that costs money.

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@TheGreyKing I assume you are supporting what I am saying, not refuting it.

Not all students who want to can get accepted to, or perhaps afford, a top school. For those in that category, safeties can be found that work. At Pitt 57% have an ACT between 30-36. At the Top 30 regional U my lad’s friend went to, only 6% did. That’s 6 students out of every 100 - not necessarily easy to find them as peers and definitely no assurance they’re even in the same major/classes. Classes certainly aren’t set up to teach at that level either. At Pitt 2% have ACT scores below 24. At the regional U 61% did.

There is a big difference. One should try to find a safety that allows a top student to have a good experience. From what I’ve seen of kids who go to Pitt, it’s a good safety for them (and some end up putting it as their #1 over some Top 20 schools). A Top 30 regional U isn’t the best safety for these students even if it’s a great option for those who fit its profile.

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One other thing to add-- not all kids are interested in “top” schools even if they have the stats and financial means to do so

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If it’s a comparison between something like rank 1 and 110 then yes I’ll use my income, saving and loans to pay but if it’s between 1 and 20, I wouldn’t.

My kids are National Merit Scholars going to schools where there are no merit scholarships so it sucks but it’s okay. I’m frugal and don’t live to impress people with things. I can cut down my lifestyle even more and take up a second part time job.

If I had to take big loans to pay, I wouldn’t even if it’s Harvard, loans up to $50K for 4 years would be okay. Even a nice car costs that much and doesn’t last for lifetime like good education does. There are many benefits of attending elite colleges.

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My daughter was one of those kids who did not want an Ivy due to her perception of the stress level at these schools. I think it’s odd that applying to Vanderbilt didn’t phase her, but this is about her perception and personality etc.

I agree about Pitt being an amazing school and great safety for a high stats kid. My D received a full tuition scholarship and was invited to interview for room and board. She was also invited to apply for their early med school acceptance. At her interview she had the opportunity to meet professors, current students, and students who were also there for the interview. She walked out in awe and told me that these Pitt students were some of the most accomplished kids she had ever met. She chose another school but it had nothing to do with the students. Pitt was one of my favorite schools,

Picking appropriate safety schools is no easy task, but if that’s the route a student must go because of finances or some other reason, it can be done. I don’t think it’s necessary to be faced with Brown, Vandy etc…versus a very, very poor academic match. Many kids here attend the local CC for 2 years and then transfer into an Ivy because of the articulation agreement.

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Absolutely! The student should be the one driving - not the parent pushing. It’s their life. Pushing students to go on paths they don’t want to be on is a recipe for disaster more often than a way to be successful. Many times even if they are successful by the parent’s standards, the student’s own life is filled with stress and regret.

This isn’t limited to top schools. It’s all of life. A parent pushing to get basic homework done or wanting help with chores is 100% different than a parent insisting upon more sports or music or various career paths. A parent helping to guide via showing their lad/lass how to look up actual stats on salaries, job availability, and figuring out a budget is totally different than one insisting upon a certain lifestyle and limiting choices. A parent explaining the nuts and bolts of affordability for anything (cars, rent, college) is also in the realm of good vs bad. But too many parents (not all!) push their offspring in ways the offspring aren’t designed to go, and that leads to a ton of unnecessary stress. It can happen with anything from pressure to go to top schools or pressure to avoid college (elitism et al) along with the proud mama or papa wanting that next sports star when junior doesn’t see the appeal.

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Many of the kids I know in NYC live in Queens, Jackson Heights or outer parts of Brooklyn with roommates. They are not earning $55K and find it challenging, especially with the cost of health insurance and paying back loans. It is not fair to state that every kid that finds costs high is looking to live in the best part of town in their own space. They are putting up extra walls and sharing studios to add more roommates. Even in NJ the cost of apartments that are commutable by public transit is high. I contrast that with when I started out on the West Coast and was able to live comfortably and save some money on a very low starting salary. Of course, we had free TV, no internet or cell phone and only called home long distance on Sundays! And kids today think eating out is an everyday event. So yes, there are ways to reduce costs, but I think the cost of living has increased faster than salaries in many fields.

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Mom- yes, cost of living has increased faster than salaries.

BUT- kids who insist that their first job needs to be at MOMA or the Met instead of a fine museum in Fort Worth, TX or Kansas City are going to find it challenging to live in an entry level arts management salary in NYC. Kids who can’t bear to launch a career in television at a public station in Minneapolis and must be in NY or DC or Boston are going to find it a tough ride-- those salaries start small (as they have for decades). etc.

No amount of cost-cutting is going to change the dynamic that taking the job offer in St. Louis or Dayton is probably a better financial move than figuring out SF or Seattle. The nominal salary is likely lower, but you still get much more bang for the buck.

But how to get that through to kids? I graduated from college during a recession. My classmates went to a bunch of places- because that’s where the jobs were. The ones who were able to swing a publishing, museum, arts, or entertainment job in a major metro were the ones with family money (and support). You didn’t have that? Hello El Paso, Albany, and… a very lucky one- Sarasota.

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I find this very interesting and wonder if this attitude from new graduates is across the board or specific career pursuits. When I graduated (many years ago) with an engineering degree, everyone was looking for jobs that gave them the best access to new technologies without regard to location. I ended up taking a job located way out in rural east Texas and it was a great experience with access to technology that was off the charts.

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No disagreeing Blossom, if that is the circumstance. Not every type of job is available in a lower cost city. Some kids find their first job in NYC or other expensive city and they don’t have the option to get the same type of job in El Paso. My only point is that not every kid has inflated expectations and the cost of living in some places is high compared to the entry level salaries.

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Yes, for both of our kids.

1 could have had essentially a free ride at one of our flagships, based on his high-school record and his performance on a special exam that the university offers. He also got a substantial merit offer at another state flagship. But he chose to attend a private college from which he received a nominal-sized National Merit Scholarship. In effect we paid 95% of the costs. That said, about a quarter of that money came from his grandparents (my parents). No loans.

2 answered the OP's question herself: No. She did not want to attend any college in our state. She sought and earned admission to several art schools and one art program at a private university (CMU). She attended a private art college in New England. We paid the costs, about a one-fourth of which came from her grandparents. No loans.

We could do this for our kids because we had saved a lot of money, which was partly because I had a pretty good income as a college professor (we are a one-income family), and partly because we aren’t spendy (we had a modest-sized home, one car at a time, and few toys). Also as I’ve mentioned, my parents came through for our kids, as they did for all of their 12 grandchildren.