My daughter recently graduated from a very strong research university/flagship. I suppose one can refer to it as a “cheap state university,” as residents of the state pay under $28,000 a year and FA is excellent. I will be the first person to tell you that LACs are among the finest schools out there, but they were not for my kid and I was not going to force the issue. After visiting the University of Richmond, Hamilton, Colgate, and Vassar…my daughter looked at us and said she is done visiting LACs and has zero interest in attending one. I was not forcing the issue. If LACs were of interest to her we would have done a lot of research on affordability and merit…$70-75,000 a year was not happening. Let me add that if families can spend that kind of money on all of their kids…there is nothing wrong with it. My kid had no interest in applying to Ivy League schools…she was very nervous about intensity (whether it’s real or not is irrelevant…to her it was real).
After researching flagships and large research universities and reading about them on this thread…one MIGHT assume the following:
All classes are large and impersonal. The word “all” makes the statement false. My D had large intro classes…mostly in science. After that…her classes were small …or at least much smaller. Were her lecture halls impersonal where everybody sits in the back texting…or sleeping? No, although it might happen frequently at some schools. Lecture halls were taught to encourage active learning…based on current research. Discussions were always going on in these lecture halls…believe it or not.
Getting into clubs is impossible. My daughter got into every club...and this is at a school where students are extremely active in clubs. That’s what she loved about the school. Were leadership positions competitive? Yes they were. Was it hard to become a tour guide or admissions leader? Absolutely!!! Is this bad? These kids are the face of the school....representatives to thousands of families from across the globe. Shouldn’t there be a selection process in place?
One must work hard so as not to be anonymous. Ok...some students love to be anonymous and for those kids....it’s easier to do this at a large school. Some students do have to work at reducing anonymity....this would be much easier to do at an LAC. But....what about those students who sit front and center, have their hand in the air, are always involved, stay late to talk to professors, attend office hours without being nudged by their parents, are always seeking and interviewing for research positions and internships without being reminded by their parents etc. Would we consider this to be “work” if it is something that comes naturally to such students?
Let’s discuss something that is brought up all the time on CC. This would be the lack (or significant reduction) of intellectual discussions and the inability to find smart peers at larger flagships. This is completely absurd and insulting. Not to mention the fact that when these students travel, study abroad, get internships, research etc...they will be with kids from all kinds of schools. My kid worked with kids from Vanderbilt...as well as directional schools...at the same time. Nobody cared. End of discussion. It’s also absurd at honors colleges...we have had several valedictorians attend such programs and they are doing just fine...they are still very smart, fully engaged, etc. Again...do your research. Some are certainly a better fit than others. We looked at one as a safety ...and the honors program...despite being great...was clearly not for my D. She was head and shoulders above the stats for that program...she was not in the mix.
Do students at flagships engage in research? Yes! I assume ? it’s easier at some than others...do your own research. At my kids school any student who wants it....will have it. Being involved in research is the norm, not the exception.
Do students at flagships even know who their professors are? Are the rumors true that professors don’t/rarely engage with students? My kid went bike riding with them, ate meals with them in town, went for coffee, went to their homes for dinner, etc. Do students at all flagships have this experience? From my observations at several schools....a lot of it depends on the student. Do grad students teach classes? That was not my D’s experience...all of her classes were taught by professors with the exception of one class. She took a foreign language literature class that had 15 students and a grad student teaching it...she was one class away from her PhD.
What about diversity? Well...my kids school was economically very diverse. For the first time ever...she got out of her upper middle class bubble and met brilliant kids on full FA. Yes...most kids were from instate...but she still had lots ...many friends from all over the country...and from other continents. Her research team was not from this country, and she is still very close with them. Imagine my surprise when she casually announced on the car ride home...I may have to go to Africa for my research team because they need me to do something.
Lets discuss housing. Can you live on campus for all four years at a flagship? At my kids school...yes. If this is important to you...do your research. It exists. And let me remind you that living off campus teaches them a lot.
So…do I think my kid attended the best and most perfect school out there? No, I don’t…but for her it was perfect. Isn’t that the point of this process? There is no perfection…large schools have things that are very annoying, and small schools can feel too small for some come junior/senior year And let me remind everybody that most students who are accepted to Amherst or Yale…are not choosing between those two schools…and Oshkosh Directional Cheap State School.
@theloniusmonk huh? I was just trying to get the thread back on topic. I agree that elite universities like Brown can give the same experiences as a LAC. Brown’s undergrad (I believe) is only three times the size of most LACs. I thought we were supposed to be using “cheap state school”as comparison. That was the question.
This pretty much sums it up. It doesn’t matter if the school is public/private, large/small, or what the price tag is. Do research to fit the school and student together within an affordable budget. There’s no one “right” answer for every student. There can even be more than one “right” answer for the same student. That said, there are “wrong” answers for the student too. That’s what one wants to avoid.
Top 20 according to who? Using what criteria? The fact remains that the degree, no matter where you go, is accredited as a bachelors degree and nothing more. If you go to job search sites, the only distinction employers make is with a bachelors degree and a masters degree. Paying $250k for a bachelors degree is insanely stupid. That’s more than medical school.
We were full pay and I don’t think we’re insanely stupid. There are many things our friends and neighbors value (new cars every other year, cruises in February, fancy health club and gym) which we do not. In turn, we paid money that others would not pay for our kids BA’s.
I don’t think my neighbor is stupid for installing granite countertops-- even though I wouldn’t spend money to have a full blown “Chef’s Kitchen” in a neighborhood where you’re never going to see a return on that “investment”. And I’m not stupid for the things I pay top dollar for. Not asking you to fund my kids education, Coolguy.
@coolguy40 that’s hilarious! We aren’t just paying for just for a degree. We are paying for the whole four year experience that fits our kids best. Sometimes that costs more. Sometimes it does not. For S19, it will cost full price. Not sure yet about D21.
When we watch the various Househunters episodes on HGTV, H and I often find ourselves musing that when we search we ought to get a nice bargain by asking for a nice view/location and that’s it (along with it being a 2/2 condo). It’s fine with us if we have a place that fits in with “Perfectly Good Homes and Gardens” rather than “Better Homes and Gardens.” I’ll admit I don’t even like granite countertops or stainless steel appliances, so I’d consider an “upgrade” to those a negative if there were two equal places we were looking at.
Yet apparently many folks like those, so… to each our own. None of us are stupid. We just choose what we want to spend money on.
Same with colleges. Find the fit for the student just like we do with choosing where we live.
The question I’m asking is this. At what point do the facts of basic monetary value prevail when choosing a college? Do facts get thrown out the window when you’re full pay? Calling experience incalculable and therefore worth paying $250k, sorry, that’s an excuse, not a fact. Money is really the only true fact in paying for college. Take that away, all you have left are excuses.
MODERATOR’S NOTE:
State PoV. Defend once if needed. Move on. So @coolguy40 is clearly in the camp of not paying the premium. Debating his PoV is now derailing.
As a full pay parent I continually ask myself if our decision to pay a large amount is worth it because when it comes to spending we are the final arbiters. We periodically make these assessments on everything we spend on. Sometimes we’re happy - sometimes not, but we always try to take impartial look at everything. When it comes to full pay tuition we really have only two data sources- feedback from our son, and (in my case) information gleaned from CC. We have no idea what the experience would have been at other schools but we do know the actual experiences of our S. So after 3 years of tuition are we happy? Yep. Do we have any complaints? Nope? Does S have any complaints? Not that we know of. Problems getting into desired classes? No. Taught by grad students? No. Research opportunities? Yes. Published? Yep, several times. Problems getting internships? No. Outlook for employment after senior year? Two hard offers already in-hand but keeping options open. Everyone happy? Yes. Could S have had the exact same results from a “cheap state Univ” as mentioned in this threads’ title? I have no way of knowing that for sure.
If he is at Stanford studying CS, seems like he would not be able to avoid having a discussion or lab section with a graduate student TA in many of the required CS courses. Of course, this does not mean that he was taught only by graduate student TAs, nor does it mean that graduate student TAs are necessarily bad, despite the conventional wisdom on these forums.
Like everything else, there is no one right answer! It depends on the kid, the family, the family finances, what the kid is interested in, etc!
Also, no two universities are exactly alike! You can’t turn a school into something it’s not. Even among universities that are fairly similar: they’re not identical. You can’t have the exact same experience at Amherst that you would at Williams…you could have a very similar experience though…
Kid graduated a LAC this year. We were full pay, minus about 28K of interest-free loans to said kid so he had skin in the game. He signed a contract before senior year making $75K in the career he wanted and location he wanted. Most of his friends are in the same position. Although his education cost us over 250K, in the first two years after graduation we are close to even with kid’s salary and the lack of grad school tuition. Company also pays tuition on advanced degrees. I don’t know if these opportunities are as abundant in state schools.
Also for my kids it wasn’t an ivy/top 20 vs a cheap state university…it was a cheap state university vs good solid private schools…I would assume that this is the case for a majority of the kids applying to college in this country.
@blossom true, but maybe those people can afford a cruise AND expensive college tuition. Maybe their kids are only interested in the less expensive schools? Who knows? Everyone’s finances are different.