@oldfort Sounds like I’d rather run into you at a cocktail party than someone who has determined success is based purely on income. Surely, the purpose of a college education has changed in recent decades. Since the cost is now so high, parents and students measure ROI ( as well they should). But thinking that the entire purpose of college is to make the most money is mind boggling to me.
What about the actual time at the University? Yes, many schools can meet the needs of every student ( private and public). Yes, some schools are better fits this might be a private OR a public. But there are reasons why so many apply to the top schools. Professors for one. Access to research. Silly things like nice building and important things like smaller classes and specialized programs. The amount of money a school has can determine many things for a student. So can classmates. No one is saying kids are not talented across the board. But what if your kid is interested in a very narrow field ( where the best program is at a private U?)Are you going to say no, you can’t follow your dream. Many have to do this. There are often many paths but not in every case.
Also, no one has mentioned connections. If you attend prestigious U, you will have friends in your major. With social media, they will undoubtable be connected to you for life. My spouse had gotten at least 5 top level jobs based on connections (including in the 199O’s when the industry fell apart). This has afforded us the ability not to have big downturns in income ( for the ROI folks). Does this mean state U grads won’t be doing the same? Not at all. But it does mean that when they economy gets rocky there are more people vying for the same jobs and U is a factor ( yes a single factor but a factor nonetheless) in terms of getting the job. Many graduates of top U’s start companies ( yes state grads do too) but it’s disproportionate. So are the top jobs. Check the highest paid individuals and you will see that many have top educations.
College is so much more than ROI. My kids would be bored to tears if I told them they were going for the best ROI. Life is not about ROI, it’s about living well on your own terms and finding your own niche. Sometimes the results are financially beneficial and sometimes the results are based in satisfaction. To create an entire generation of ROI seekers robs the world of many of the thinkers who are important to move society forward. Like anything college choices are a balance. Some will chose one option and some another. There are benefits and drawbacks to both.
One cannot experience in a public library or by reading something online, the same things one can experience in a lively classroom.
The comments in this thread are really interesting. People are definitely passionate about wanting the best they can possibly give to their children. I applaud that we all love them so dearly. I’m feeling a bit teary this morning because I realized that I have exactly 30 days left to have all three of my kids home at the same time with the 5 of us all together.
There’s really no right or wrong here. Success can be found at every college, if the student wants to be there and feels connected. How much families pay is very personal. Decisions come down to how comfortable we are with risk (is income stable), how many more children need to be educated (how much will subsequent kids need), and how close you are to retirement (how is your 401K health, do you have a pension?). There’s nothing wrong with sending your child to a state university, and there’s nothing wrong with paying full freight for a top school. We all do everything we can to give our kids the best chance.
@thumper1, not that it should matter to you, but I think your son is successful. Following one’s passion and being able to cover your expenses is successful to me. As a parent I would be happy if he is happy.
The issue of a ROI matching the cost to attend college is between kid and parent. It matters to some and those people probably have a good reason why it does. For those who don’t care about the ROI matching the COA that’s fine too. However in my opinion ‘kids’ should have a goal of becoming financially independent at whatever lifestyle they…not the parents…choose.
As for your daughter, who is changing directions from engineering, I think she should pursue her ‘career happiness’. Hopefully her educational foundation will help her find it.
I agree that some folks wouldn’t, but that’s their business. Your son is fortunate you supported his dream.
“Here’s an idea if you have the money. Tell your kids you will pay a maximum of $X dollars for undergrad. If they graduate at a school that costs less than that, after aid, they get the difference back as a college graduation gift. Let them make the adult decisions about whether the more expensive school is worth the extra expense to them. That should be confidence-building.”
@roethlisburger Yes, this is exactly what we did. They have a 529 plus a fixed monthly allowance for 4 years and pay their own bills. After that it was up to them. In the end both chose their cheapest option (one took a full ride and the other went to a state flagship), even though the decision was not solely about money. They are both extremely happy with their choices and will have money left over when they graduate.
@Twoin18 While I applaud the financial calculus of this program, I would be way of giving any kid the full decision regarding how to spend $350K on their undergraduate education. There are many kids who would chose the lesser priced education and buy a fancy car and the lower priced education.
As parents, we plan to guide them. We have never considered the college money to be “theirs” It’s family money and family money comes with family choices. Our kids know that we are frugal and give careful consideration to various choices. They generally do likewise. They know we’d support most things, but they also know that we expect them to be working members of society and to be able to live on their own means. We aren’t gifting them with money at any point. We are planning to pay for their undergraduate education as we now pay for private school which in our case costs as much per year per kid as most colleges. We aren’t open to every choice. Some choices wouldn’t fly. But they know that we are willing to support their dreams.
I want our kids to know they need to make their own way as we did. I applaud those who are fine with giving their kids total discretion. But it’s not something I would ever embrace. Then again, I would never get involved in choosing the major or school ( but I would add data points). It’s interesting to hear how other families make their decisions. Just great to know how consensus is reached.
Well, actually you can. We visited both campuses and spoke with students from both schools. We looked at facilities at both schools, from science labs, libraries to an actual art museum at one of those campuses. We checked out school’s career center, and I even viewed job postings and career fair participants. At the end of day, no one pays up 250K based on conjecture. Not even private banking customers.
@socaldad2002 UCLA is a top 20 college. Both were accepted there and Berkeley. So D took the full ride elsewhere, S chose UCLA (with a merit scholarship) over Berkeley.
They didn’t apply to anywhere that was going to cost $300K, that calculation of value for money was made in advance given the attractive instate benchmarks (they knew how the money would be handled beforehand) and the need to cut their lists down to a manageable size. Georgetown and Cornell for example were dropped from their lists (but were reasonable possibilities for admission, since classmates with very similar profiles went there). So other plausible alternatives could have been top 10-20 privates (but not HYPSM) if there had been a willingness to spend that much money (which neither we nor the kids had).
Those are some of parameters USnews rankings use. Ranking is not all about prestigious, it is a way of comparing one school with another. I know many people want to believe or say ranking isn’t important, but I think it does gives one a base line to look at schools. Does it matter one school is ranked 5 vs 10 or 20, probably not, but there is definitely a difference in quality of education when it comes to 10 vs 100 (that may be classroom size, graduation rate, spent/student, etc). Again, it is not conjecture when comparing schools, there are stats one can use. We read consumer report and do research online when making a major purchase, not sure why it should be any different when deciding on a college. Would you give your kid a check and say, “Here you go, now you go out to buy a car you want”?
In our family, the decisions about which colleges to apply to, which majors to select, and which college to attend are all consensual. If we hadn’t been able to reach a consensus, the final decisions would have been my son’s, and we told him that at the outset. We were in an advisory role and he had to live with his decisions.
@oldfort Yes, I fully agree. Though I am wary of how US News and World Report has been manipulated by various colleges over the years. It’s not just the things one hears about ( accepting kids for second semester/following year to boost yields) but the criterion. What’s important should be what’s important to you and your student rather than what US News deems as the parameters. But it’s great to have a baseline. It really is.
When our kids applied to private schools we made our own spreadsheet about what factors mattered to them/us. We then added and subtracted fields. It worked out great. Some schools were known for certain things like having a good STEM program. When you kicked the tires, sometimes the program was great and often it wasn’t. College is similar.
There are so many other ways to learn…in college. Sit in a classroom and listen? Oh heck no. Listen, question, discuss, write about, get critiqued, get challenged, change, defend…these are the intellectually electrifying things I look for in a college.
INTERACTION with professors and peers, not passive listening, absorbing.
@Happytimes2001 To be clear, they don’t have signature authority over a six figure 529. If they have a tuition bill to pay, they text me and I transfer the money to their bank account so they can pay it. So they don’t actually have the ability to “buy a fancy car” (not that they would anyway, they are more interested in high interest savings accounts and Roth IRAs, which admittedly is unusual for 18 year olds).
But if they join a sorority or go skiing or go on a spring break trip (or take summer classes, study abroad, etc.), that’s what they pay for out of their overall budget. So D has more money for that (and also decided to take our old car to college and pay for the gas, parking and extra insurance costs) because she received the scholarship. And later on if they want to use the remaining money for grad school, law school or a house downpayment then that’s fine too.
It is also possible to have a life of the mind at a school outside the top 20 and at a state school. It is possible to network well at public Us. My kids that went to state schools (good state schools but not top 20) took classes in things like philosophy and history that required high level thinking and writing and they really like those classes. But my youngest was just as excited about the cutting edge research he has done. Expanding ones mind is not limited to a humanities classroom. It is just not true that going to a good state school, even if it is ranked in the 50s or 60s, does not afford one with a good education and the opportunity to learn outside the classroom. One difference? Fewer wealthy kids. Kids I know that went to private colleges ranked similarly have been to visit friends at their second homes in Europe or ocean-front mansions. My public college kids do not.
There is a balancing act that every family does or should do. Most choose the best possible college that they can afford. And @privatebanker is correct - there is no real way to know if one college truly offers a better education than a similar but less expensive public school. I don’t believe that community college or a directional state U is the same as a highly ranked college be it public or private. And it would be hard for many families with high achieving kids to turn down a top 20 for a lower ranked public or a private with merit - but many do as the money is just not there. Borrowing big to fund your kids dream school just doesn’t make sense, but stretching a bit might.
It is also not true that every student as an elite college is there to expand their mind. Some kids will go to an elite school and call home excited about new ideas, as will some at a public university. Others will take the required classes, join a frat or eating club, and party hard, not stretch their minds at all.
I just spent the long weekend with a large group of people who were grad students at Caltech in the early to mid-80s, who all lived in the same house or were part of our eating group, or who are married to someone who was. It was the most intellectually electrifying time I have spent since the last time we had a reunion (every three or four years). It did remind me that while I love my neighborhood, there is a different level of intensity and intellect in that crowd. We talked about all sorts of things - sometimes science related, but often not. We also watched the World Cup and played a lot of board and card games. Anyway, yeah, I think that’s worth paying for.
What can or should be done to reduce the financial pressure that forces many students and families to put cost, financial ROI, and pre-professional preparation at the top of the list when making decisions about post-secondary education?
From what I’ve seen, this is possible at any college - or at least most of them. Colleges by their nature attract folks interested in sharing what they know. None of my lads went to a Top 20 school. All called home about experiences they appreciated. The school Elie Wiesel taught at before his death is currently ranked #135 out of LACs (much, much higher if one is interested in Marine Science - according to many in the field, #1 for that, but EW wasn’t talking at all about that).
Public vs private is meaningless when it comes to “good school.” There are terrific, good, ok, and not so great among them all and which one falls where on that list depends a bit upon the major and student involved.
This particular discussion is more based upon whether college is merely ROI and anything else can be picked up at the library. For many of us, it isn’t. I feel for those who miss out on the opportunities they could have had if that’s all they consider college to be. When I talk with students about college, I always encourage them to join clubs (new interests or old) plus see what speakers/events are coming and go to see them if they can. Most I talk with who come back to talk with me do - and love sharing about it. I love listening.
@Twoin18 Yes, the 529’s may be like that. I don’t think the kids have total control. We had quite a bit in UTMA accounts ( which was advised before our kids were born or shortly thereafter). Our financial person didn’t like the idea of the kid being handed a hefty sum at 18 without any control by the parents. They advised us to use this money prior to the kids turning 18. We used it for private school and once for a camp. He had told us that there were a couple of nightmare stories from his firm re: UTMA’s and kids in trouble. Mainly it was addiction related. He said no parent ever expects their kid to be addicted to anything. But if you have an issue, the last thing you want is a six figure sum attached with the kids’ name. And in our state, parents have no control after 18.
I like your approach, I really do see some great benefits–but I really couldn’t sit there and let my kid spend college money on trips and expenses as they saw fit. I’d have them spend their own work money on their own expenses so they can see how quick it goes.
@Creekland I agree with the first two paragraphs of your post. (#157). However I feel very differently about the following statement you made:
No, college is not “merely ROI” to many of us, even though we prioritize ROI. It is/was just one of several high priority factors in the college selection process. Please don’t lump all of us who value ROI with those who make it their sole and overriding criterion.
Btw, I took the library card post as being facetious, but I could be wrong.
In a previous post I said, “I believe in prioritizing financial ROI where the goal is to become self-supporting.” To me that is not an extremely high bar. It’s not all about making ‘a lot’ of money, but it does mean working toward the goal of paying your own way in life.