"I agree with the breaking and entering issue and no issue charging them with that. But, then the government would need to arrest and charge BLM protesters who shut down bridges and public roads leading to airports, which is interfering with interstate commerce and with the security of the affected area. "
I think they should have arrested them.
Are these Bundy’s any relation to Ted Bundy???
I am reading many different sources in an effort to understand the facts. Is the following correct?
Cliven Bundy owns a 160 acre ranch. Although he claims his family has ranched in the area since the late 1800s, his father bought the ranch in 1948 after moving there from Arizona. For the last 20 years, he has grazed his cattle on 1,400+ acres of federal land and refused to pay for that privilege. Last year, in a stand-off, law enforcement backed off to avoid violence and he continues to graze his cattle illegally. He refuses to pay the fines resulting from that illegal grazing. At this point in time he is using public land, belonging to all of us, illegally for the financial gain of his family. He thinks this is his land, not ours. He claims it though unsubstantiated ancestral use.
Now his son has seized federal property. Some in the group are quoted as saying they are defending local ranchers’ land rights from the government. Are they trying to lay claim to more public land?
Saintfan (and anyone else in the area) could you please explain what you believe the Bundys’ end game to be? Are they trying to claim public land for themselves? Thanks.
ETA: here it says he’s using 600,000 acres.
fwiw: my family gave up cattle about 20 years back after more than 150 years of ranching because we couldn’t make a profit. We never had public land available for grazing. I remember planting pastures, etc.
Here is a link to an Oregon newspaper article with videos…
The story is currently on page 6 of the Philadelphia Inquirer.
The less press the better.
“And no, playing with guns is not safe. The kids in my area have guns and walk around with them all the time, but they carry them properly, on their shoulders or holstered.”
Ewwww. Unless said kids are handling rifles safely under adult supervision in the context of shooting for sport at a summer camp or something similar, they must look like a real bunch of thugs.
Here’s a portion of what the speakers for the militia said in their video (my transcript):
"We have basically taken over the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. And this will be a base place for patriots from all over the country to come… We’re planning on staying here for several years. And while we’re here … we’re going to be freeing these lands up and letting the ranchers go back to ranching, getting the miners go back to mining, getting the loggers back to logging, where they can do it under the protection of the people, and not be afraid of this tyranny that’s been upon them.
“At one time Harney County was the richest county in Oregon. Now it’s the poorest, and we will reverse that by freeing up their land and their resources. We’re doing this for the people, so the people can have their lands and their resources back.”
The rest of the video goes on to say that “patriots” should come to Malheur and bring their weapons.
http://www.vox.com/2016/1/3/10703712/oregon-militia-standoff
FYI, a [map of the type of ownership of every acre in Oregon.](Public and private lands in Oregon | OregonLive.com) Scroll in to see Harney County, in the southeast, where Malheur is. The entire southeastern quarter of Oregon is mostly publicly owned. That shape typically means that the land has been publicly owned since statehood. So it doesn’t seem that the wildlife refuge was formed by eminent domain or anything of that sort, or that the county ever consisted of vast private cattle ranches. The locals cannot get their land “back,” because it was never in private hands in the first place.
The militia are announcing that they plan to seize land that has always been public, seize it by force, and hand it over to their cronies. This is not protest. It is armed insurrection.
Thuggery by any other name…
Do you have proof that “young men were shooting each other with abandon” in the area where that boy lived? And the police’s job is not to assume, but to verify. They have to make evaluated judgments based on observation. What happened to that kid was an execution by an incompetent cop (his precinct’s words, not mine). And the kid was alone, no other kids were around, so what was the danger?
Its funny how you lament the “unfairness” and “absurdity” of people calling for real gun control, while you say a kid who was shot to death practically deserved it because he carried a toy gun.
@“Cardinal Fang” and the others are right: if these thugs’ skin color or faith was different, there would be no talk of “reasonably waiting them out” or “just staking out the area”
It’s not simple common sense. It’s stereotyping. In other words: racism.
@TatinG, read the Audubon response before assuming nothing/no one is being harmed. I am not saying they should be immediately forced out. But I do think we should not assume because they are out in the middle of no where there is no impact.
From the Oregon Live report above:
"Among those joining Bundy in the occupation are Ryan Payne, U.S. Army veteran, and Blaine Cooper. Payne has claimed to have helped organize militia snipers to target federal agents in a standoff last year in Nevada. He told one news organization the federal agents would have been killed had they made the wrong move.
He has been a steady presence in Burns in recent weeks, questioning people who were critical of the militia’s presence. He typically had a holstered sidearm as he moved around the community."
Apparently, @awcntdb, the sight of armed individuals in that community isn’t so “ho-hum” that it isn’t newsworthy.
These people believe they are above the law. See Sovereign Citizens to understand what they are about. I’m looking forward to their eventual arrest, trial and imprisonment.
Which one of them is the caliph?
Reminds me of when the American Indian Movement took over Alcatraz.
If these guys start shooting then there needs to be a response. Until then, like they did when the Indians took over Alcatraz: Turn off the electricity, the water, the heat. This thing will end without a shot.
Sometimes I think - if they would like to secede, then just let 'em already, don’t let the door hit you on the butt. I feel the same way about other areas that periodically threaten secession. Buh-bye.
“The Occupy Wall Street people took over public parks and streets. Were any of them criminally prosecuted?”
Wrong! The space that the protesters “seized,” Zuccotti Park, is not a municipal public park. It is and remains a privately owned space; a plaza actually. That is one of the reasons why the police did not attempt to clear the demonstrators from the plaza. The owners, who certainly wanted the OWS crowd to go away, declined to give the NYPD authorization to actually go in and remove the protesters, likely for fear of bad P.R. Zuccotti Park is in fact owned by a real estate company that owns nearby office towers. Also, the NYPD record in handling the OWS protesters on the adjacent streets and sidewalks was not sterling, despite the rambunctious behavior of some nitwits among the OWS crowd.
The stand-off with the elder Bundy last year ended without a shot. However, he is still using our land. That may not have been a very good precedent. Even though I want to avoid violence, I am not on board with allowing private individuals to take public land. I am not willing to give these protesters the Park. I am okay with putting a circle around them and waiting it out. Of course, taxpayers will be paying for that if it happens. They are trying to take our land and they are costing us money to keep them from doing so.
Unarmed protesters get arrested all the time. This situation is really quite different, especially if statements like the one quoted above really come from the occupiers. Are these guys going to passively allow themselves to be dragged away as protesters often do? The closest analogy probably is the takeover of Alcatraz, as mentioned above. That one lasted months, and ended with forcible removal of the last holdouts. The article I read seemed to say nobody was prosecuted, but I don’t know about that.
Did they really close the schools because there are a few armed nut jobs 30 miles away?
If any of you are considering going bird watching there, bring a really good spotting scope (and a warm sleeping bag, a flag, rations, and, of course, your .338). We were there three years ago with our zoom binoculars and they were not sufficient.
More likely Al Bundy…
I can only imagine the response, if a bunch of Blacks issued the same threat, and seized federal land. Heck this is barely garnering news coverage.