article on opting out of parenthood for financial reasons

Parent Cafe
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<p>I have had a demanding professional career when childless, and I have been a full-time working mom with 2 kids, a part-time working mom with 3 kids, and a stay-home mom. I don’t begrudge anyone who makes any of those choices and I do think they can all produce successful children. My point was with regard to “motherhood” becoming perceived as a valuable endeavor. I don’t think it will become more respected than it currently is, so long as the stay-home parenting option is not encouraged by society, and motherhood is merely something that must be accommodated in the workplace.</p>

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<p>I have never felt that having and raising a child (and being a widowed parent) kept me from achieving career success. I am reasonably successful. To the extent that I am not more successful, raising a child was not what prevented me from further achievement. Perhaps it is different for people in different fields? I’m curious about other people’s experiences. Maybe I’m an aberration? </p>

<p>My experience with the baby urge was similar to mathmom’s. I never ruled out motherhood, but had no particular urge. Then, in my early 30s, I decided I wanted one. If getting pregnant had been difficult (it took me a scant two months from the moment I decided to get busy), I sometimes wonder how I would have reacted, particularly after seeing so many colleagues struggle with months and even years of various assisted reproduction methods. </p>

<p>I could imagine that this NYT blogger (with her cost-benefit analysis to motherhood!) might one day wake up and feel the same way, whether or not she can “afford” a baby at that time. Maybe she never will want one, and that will be just fine.</p>

<p>One point about patience, romanigypsyeyes: Though it seems counterintuitive, babies can actually inspire forbearance, even in people who tend to be impatient and easily irritated (absweetmarie raises her hand). When I looked at my vulnerable little cutie who depended on me for everything, I became more loving and tolerant than I’d ever been before. That’s not to say I didn’t lose my temper on occasion!</p>

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<p>[Why</a> Women Still Can?t Have It All - Anne-Marie Slaughter - The Atlantic](<a href=“Why Women Still Can’t Have It All - The Atlantic”>Why Women Still Can’t Have It All - The Atlantic)</p>

<p>To be successful in the world today, you need to put tons of time in and this time that is usually not going to be there if you choose to reproduce. My dream job requires at least 70 hours of week per week. It requires years of training, in which having a child would be mentally and physically exhausting and also is heavily male dominated. If you don’t put time into your career, you will not be successful. If you have children and don’t spend time with them, society will blame you for being a terrible parent, even while overlooking the father’s role. (Why did people question Katie Couric over her decision to go to Afghanistan but no one bothers questioning the male anchors? )</p>

<p>Our current society is patriarchal and misogynistic. Just read any article that lets General Petraeus completely off the hook while blaming Paula Broadwell for “being a temptress”. </p>

<p>I am very grateful that my mother stayed at home for some years with me. However, her career stagnated significantly and she’s going back to school now to finish her Doctorate. I don’t want that and nor do my friends. Having children is great! It’s wonderful and a great contribution to society. But I would prefer to contribute by finding a cure to diseases or seeing patients.</p>

<p>tl;dr People of my age group feel that it’s difficult to reach the upper echelons of careers while having children and for many of us, careers > children. This issue is compounded since, (at least from my perspective), most people don’t communicate well and fail to compromise in marriages. Also, biologically having a child seems like way too much pain and suffering.</p>

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<p>I don’t know Bay. We sort of had the artificial creation of the cult of the mother after WWII when men returning from war “needed” women to give up their factory jobs. This did women no favors imho. I would prefer to see childcare valued as work, whether mom does it or dad or nanny or daycare center. We do not usually do that. If it is important work, it’s important work regardless who does it.</p>

<p>I don’t know how to deal with the childbirth issue. If we had to put a monetary value on giving birth, is there enough money in the world?</p>

<p>absweetmarie: you are so right. When we talk about Ann Marie Slaughter, we are talking elitism and really high class problems.</p>

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<p>It’s not that bad in most cases, as the existence of families with more than one child illustrates. </p>

<p>If it was that horrible, would people do it AGAIN?</p>

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<p>l women l - would women do it again :slight_smile:
Now that I am post-menopausal, I have no idea why we do it again. More than one friend has called me immediately after delivery cussing out the world “why didn’t someone tell me???” Then they do it again.</p>

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<p>What is your dream job, ecouter11?</p>

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<p>So would I. I don’t understand your disagreement with what I wrote. </p>

<p>I don’t think stay-home parenting is currently valued in our (or European) societies, and this is partly evidenced by motherhood benefits being provided in terms of work accommodations for one’s <em>real</em> job. Do you see any affirmative incentives in American society for one parent to stay home with their kids? Arguably, the lack of adequate day care might be one negative incentive to stay home, I suppose, but it doesn’t send a message that such choice has value.</p>

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<p>Ah, I didn’t see that you guys had already discussed Anne-Marie Slaughter. I think I can understand her problems a bit more, as my cousin is having issues with this. She’s in finance, though. </p>

<p>@absweetmarie, I would like to be a clinician scientist. So, based on what I know from talking to clinician scientists and reading some literature about the career, it requires:</p>

<p>a) successfully being accepted into a MD/PhD or MD/MSc program which is tough in of itself
b) 4 years medical school and at least 2 years of graduate school
c) Residency, which usually goes for 3+ years and
d) postdoc/or research years in a research track residency
e) trying to get a tenure track research position = crazy hard, especially with all the PhD only folks competing with you
f) if you get the position, spending most of your time writing grants and trying to get a lab started + clinic duties. </p>

<p>I know some people do it, but most of the people who make it are, unfortunately men. I know a guy who did an MS+MD+ IM/CC residency + postdoc at a prestigious research institution. He’s in his thirties. However, his wife/girlfriend/partner had to basically give up her career to be a lab tech and stay with him while he moved. </p>

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<p>People are gluttons for punishment ;-D . Jokes aside, perhaps the "gaining weight/being moody etc. " aspects of it are exaggerated by the media so that it sounds particularly horrifying. That being said, in my “hometown”, nearly every girl plays some kid of sport and there’s a lot of emphasis on being healthy and fit and “looking good”. As such, it’s quite likely that such a worldview has made us more fearful of the biological process of pregnancy and the sacrifices it entails.</p>

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<p>For me, kids were non-negotiable. Broke up with my college BF in part over that issue, and he never did have kids with any of his three wives. (Glad to have dodged THAT bullet, in more ways than one!) I have liked every stage, though am finding the semi-launched young adult era rather difficult.</p>

<p>Because DH and I knew early on that kids would be in the picture, and because both of us came from families that struggled mightily on the financial front, we chose from pretty much Day One of our marriage to live on less than what we made. We felt this would give us more options WRT working FT/PT, college choices, and just not being tied down to paying for a big mortgage and a lot of STUFF. </p>

<p>For comparison – our neighbors tend to take smaller, more frequent and more local vacations, and their kids are happily at directional state schools and got cars while still in HS. This gives them the budget for a big household improvement project every year, which makes them very happy, as much of their extended family is local and comes to visit frequently. We save DH’s frequent flyer miles for big trips done cheaply (including to visit family in other parts of the country), and chose the private college route (public schools through HS). We have deferred household maintenance and upgrades for 15 years (and it shows). It works for them, it works for us.</p>

<p>I have done FT, PT and SAHM, and am home again now due to medical reasons. We were darned glad we weren’t tied to a mortgage that depended on my continued work – we could do what we felt was needed for college, or a big mortgage, but not both. </p>

<p>What I didn’t expect once we had kids was how much DH would resent me not having a full-blown career. (I have been in the same field for 25+ years, but did the mommy track once the kids arrived.) I could not imagine working 50-60 hrs/week in consulting while DH was working 70+, but he has found it very hard to see how my stepping back from the fast track made <em>his</em> progression possible.</p>

<p>S1 and DIL have asked us lots of questions about work/life balance. They aren’t planning on kids for a while yet (thank goodness), but they are already thinking about the costs of college and homeownership. One idea they’ve floated is returning to her country when the kids are in HS so that they could attend top UK universities for much less than comparable US schools. Both of them were academic outliers in school – one got good accommodations, the other didn’t – and they are in agreement on the kind of educational experiences they would like their kids to have. They are also paying attention to those companies that are generous with family-friendly policies. </p>

<p>So, while I don’t think finances will keep them from having kids, they are thinking actively about how to make sure they can juggle the career paths/child care/child rearing and college pieces.</p>

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<p>ecouter11: Your takeaway from the Slaughter article is that child free is better if you want to be successful in a demanding career? I am not encouraging you to get pregnant but I assure you probably no generation was more body conscious than mine, (we practically invented eating disorders) and we all did okay with that part of pregnancy. We all felt exactly as you are describing. It is, however, a fact that your body may be different afterwards. Extreme pregnancy changes can be dealt with by surgery.</p>

<p>Bay: Probably we are saying exactly the same thing in different ways. When a young man or woman, who has many opportunities available to them, chooses to be a primary caregiver… there is usually no societal approval of that choice, just like there is not much prestige associated with being a day care worker. It doesn’t compare in terms of prestige with being an MD/PhD. Probably it will only become prestigious when men do it regularly. I liked poetgrl’s example of how her husband was not “daddy-tracked.” I think our society only perceives prestige in jobs that pay a lot of money. The general public thinks all MD/PhDs make a lot of money. A “lot of money” is relative. No one thinks child care workers make a lot of money. Thus childcare is low prestige. </p>

<p>How do we change that?</p>

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<p>ecouter11,</p>

<p>You’re describing a difficult but very rewarding career path. Good luck to you. You’re right that men are much better represented in this arena, but that doesn’t mean the career path is incompatible with motherhood. It means that you would have an easier time of it if you found a supportive partner. It is true that there are certain careers that demand more training just to be eligible for positions, and then when you’re “in” you may still be required to work extremely long hours that make work-life balance difficult in general, never mind adding a child (or children) to the mix. This doesn’t NEED to be the woman’s problem. </p>

<p>If you’ll forgive me, I think your fear of the biological process of pregnancy has more to do with your (I assume) relative youth than with reality. Think about it: Women have been getting pregnant and having babies for a rather long time. You and your hometown friends didn’t discover the notion that labor sucks! I don’t know anyone who speaks longingly about childbirth, but neither do I know anyone who didn’t have a second baby because of the pain. There probably are some people who decide not to have babies because it “hurts” or because it will ruin their figures. I do not think those are the most compelling reasons to avoid pregnancy, but to each her own.</p>

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<p>Isn’t it odd that middle and upper income women are opting out of motherhood for financial reasons, but those who cannot support their children are not. </p>

<p>Some huge percentage (40, 50 60%) of children born in the US are born to unmarried women. They will have no father in their lives. They are very likely to live in poverty. They will have no male mentor or guide. So many men are reproducing and not taking responsibility for it and their female partners are letting them.</p>

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<p>Is there any consideration that many women may not be choosing to not have children but CAN’T have children? No secret (except to young women) that it becomes significantly harder to become pregnant with age and I can’t help believing long term hormonal birth control can also have a negative impact on fertility (nothing but anecdotal evidence on my part). Career first is not necessarily the best plan if you want kids.</p>

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<p>Wow what a leap that is.</p>

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<p>TatinG: I think maybe 07Dad and I posted links that contradict your post, though I think that POV is a common one. Of course, who knows if any of the studies are true? I learned that on the equal pay thread
:)</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.legalmomentum.org/our-work/women-and-poverty/resources--publications/single-mothers-snapshot.pdf[/url]”>http://www.legalmomentum.org/our-work/women-and-poverty/resources--publications/single-mothers-snapshot.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>But this perpetuates the idea that caring for a child is the <em>mother’s</em> role, with father as just an add-on or helper. I raised my children equally with my husband. If we are handing out medals for parenthood here, why should I be “rewarded” and not him? It does a disservice to all of us when we continue to treat parenthood as woman’s domain.</p>

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<p>I absolutely agree with you PG. That was a response to Bay. I think Bay and I have concluded we are in agreement, too. Let’s say “parenting” not “mothering” except - as poetgrl correctly points out- daddys frequently get bonus points and mommy’s careers stall when they take parenting time-outs.</p>

<p>What about this, though? You can co-parent. You can’t really co-birth. right? You can get someone else to birth for you, but a woman still has to do it.</p>

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I think it depends on the family and on the individuals. My husband and I were equal partners. It was not what I wanted in my life (the only one I will ever get) and it’s something that I will never be ok with. For the women who ARE ok with it, it’s a great outcome. For the women who want children but prefer their partner do the day-to-day stuff, a SAH partner is perfect. I don’t care which model my kids pick, I just hope they are able to choose the one makes them truly happy, at least for a while.</p>

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<p>My take on the Slaughter article is that it’s increasingly difficult to be highly successful professionally and also have a family. I don’t know what I’ll do yet…as you can probably tell, that’s not my main concern at the time; I just decided to post on this thread because the topic has come up pretty often when my friends and I discuss feminism! There are some women who I greatly admire who’ve managed to do both (Kirsten Gillibrand, some scientists) but I think it requires a great deal of self discipline and collaboration with your partner. </p>

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<p>Yeah, as soon as I typed that I felt kind of silly, haha. I think that’s a decision that I’ll make after at least 10 years, so thankfully I have some time to think this stuff over :wink: .
Also, I think the whole supportive partner thing is tough to imagine as a teenager, too. </p>

<p>I used to think that have a stronger support system/recognition of childcare would result in things working better, but after reading this thread I’m not so sure. The NYT did an interesting article that specifically examined Europe. It’s a few years old, though but the points are still salient. <a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/magazin/29Birth-t.html?pagewanted=all[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/magazin/29Birth-t.html?pagewanted=all&lt;/a&gt; </p>

<p>I saw another study some time ago that said birth rates had stabilized but I can’t find it. That one was also a little old, so I don’t know how the Debt Crisis/Eurozone has impacted this area.</p>