Ask your (non-rhetorical) ethnic questions here.

<p>I believe there are 3 circumstances in which Judaism says one ought accept death instead of submission:</p>

<p>Being told to worship false gods under pain of death
Being told to murder under pain of death
Being told to commit blasphemy (acc. to Jewish law, includes homosexuality, sexual relations with animals, incest–which was more narrowly defined back then–, desecrating something holy, like God’s name written, a Torah, or other sacred document, and a few other mortal deeds)</p>

<p>Abortion, by Catholic doctrine, would fall under the category of murder, and would not be acceptable in order to save a life. The Phoenix bishop described it as “the ends not justifying the means.” </p>

<p>However, if one thinks there is a moral difference between killing a child to save the mother and killing a fetus to save the mother, then one must contemplate whether or not one really accepts that particular Catholic doctrine.</p>

<p>IBfootballer, your definition of blasphemy in Judaism (and obviously we’re only talking about Orthodox Judaism), couldn’t possibly be correct; blasphemy refers to words (cursing God, etc.), not conduct. See [Jewish</a> Life & Judaism - My Jewish Learning](<a href=“http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Theology/God/About_God/Speaking_about_God/Blasphemy.shtml;]Jewish”>http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Theology/God/About_God/Speaking_about_God/Blasphemy.shtml;) </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=1119&letter=B[/url]”>http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=1119&letter=B&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“Blasphemy: Verbal Offense Against the Sacred, from Moses to Salman Rushdie - Leonard Williams Levy - Google Books”>Blasphemy: Verbal Offense Against the Sacred, from Moses to Salman Rushdie - Leonard Williams Levy - Google Books;

<p>I think you’re talking about the situations in which martyrdom is supposed to be required. See this article:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.myjewishlearning.com/life/Life_Events/Death_and_Mourning/About_Death_and_Mourning/Attitudes/Martyrdom.shtml[/url]”>http://www.myjewishlearning.com/life/Life_Events/Death_and_Mourning/About_Death_and_Mourning/Attitudes/Martyrdom.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>And this one:</p>

<p><a href=“Judaism and Martyrdom - Aish.com”>Judaism and Martyrdom - Aish.com;

<p>Note this passage from the second article, relevant to the current discussion:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I hestitate to post because I’m not well-educated in my own faith (Catholicism), but this is my understanding of the issues IBF raises:</p>

<p>The Church’s teaching is that if the nun confesses her sin and expresses remorse and agrees not to repeat her offense, she can once again receive communion. She won’t be eternally damned. If the murderer does not confess his sin (if Catholic) and has no remorse (whether or not he is Catholic) for doing so and KNOWINGLY did what he knew to be wrong, then he IS eternally damned. </p>

<p>There are NO circumstances in which the Chruch would deny absolution to someone who repents his/her sin and does the penance proscribed by the Church. Thus, for example, if a murderer who had not been found out were to walk into a Church and confess that he had committed a murder, the priest has the right to demand that he turn himself in to the authorities as part of his penance before he will grant him absolution. But the priest could not refuse absolution because he found the circumstances of the murder truly disgusting. </p>

<p>An abortionist who walked into a confessional and with true remorse confessed that he had sinned and was willing to accept penance , would be granted absolution. However, the absolution would be ineffective if the abortionist intended to return to his clinic and continue performing abortions. </p>

<p>Catholicism uses the word “sin” in two different senses. One is the objective sense. To murder is a sin. The other is the subjective sense–to commit a sin requires an intent to do wrong. </p>

<p>When ancient peoples sacrificed a human being to the gods believing that this was pleasing to the gods, they committed an OBJECTIVE sin. However, they did not sin in the SUBJECTIVE sense because they did not intend to do wrong. Thus, they will NOT be eternally damned. God judges us by our intentions. Even if what we did is OBJECTIVELY immoral, we will not be condemned to hell if we acted in the mistaken belief that we acted morally. </p>

<p>Excommunication is the cutting off of a Catholic from receiving the Eucharist. It is automatic when someone commits a mortal (major) sin. But to do that requires INTENT. It is SUBJECTIVE sin that results in automatic excommunication. To some extent, each Catholic decides this for him-/herself. For example, it is a mortal sin for a Catholic to miss mass on a (Saturday night or) Sunday without a valid excuse. But what’s a valid excuse? To some extent, this is up to the individual’s conscience. </p>

<p>However, the Church also uses excommunication to punish Catholics who defy the Church’s teachings as to what objectively constitutes a sin or who knowingly breaks a Church rule. Thus, using what is probably the most famous example, the Church excommunicated Galileo for saying the earth revolved around the sun. That was viewed as heresy. </p>

<p>If Galileo had died while excommunicated and been refused absolution because he honestly felt that he was right and thus could not express remorse, God would have judged his soul based on his INTENT. The fact that he was ex-communicated does not ipso facto mean the man was eternally damned. </p>

<p>If the nun profiled in the NPR article honestly and sincerely believed that she was doing the MORAL thing and died five minutes later, God would judge her soul. God would see her intent. However, in THIS world, a nun who is the ultimate authority on ethics at a Catholic hospital can’t go around defying Catholic teaching on this issue. The Church has a perfect right to say this is wrong and you will be ex-communicated until you acknowledge publicly that you committed a sin. </p>

<p>There are probably many people in heaven who committed sins in the objective sense but had no intent to sin. I suspect --I’ve never had a personal revelation–that some of them have performed abortions. There is NO doubt that they committed murder–just like those ancient people who sacrificed humans to please the gods. But since they, through their ignorance, did not know that what they did was evil, God will judge them by their intent. There are also probably many people in hell who did things that really weren’t wrong but who INTENDED to do evil. </p>

<p>Hope that helps.</p>

<p>PS: I know that the use of the word ignorance will rile some. However, I’ve used that word intentionally because that’s how the Church views it. In the Church’s view, an unborn child is every bit as much of a human as any other human being. There is no moral distinction between killing an unborn child and any other person.</p>

<p>Thank you Fang, the second part of your post 194 makes perfect sense. A person following abstinence could become pregnant after a rape.
I was overlooking something. Thanks.</p>

<p>Of course your first part isn’t convincing. A woman whose willpower fades when a [opportunity for sex] is right in front of her(like your dessert example) and then chooses to have sex is not practicing abstinence.</p>

<p>As far a being rude about having 4 or more kids- well, I was careful not to say she had too many. I was careful not to say she can’t financially support them. In fact, I looked at “the bright side” mentioning she maybe has the dough, rather than presuming she doesn’t. I also didn’t mention her marital status. I think being able to support children we bring in this world is important. Maybe some disagree. Maybe some feel it should not be a factor. Some may feel only the mother’s health should be a factor. I did not “speculate” that she cannot support her family; in fact, I did the contrary. I speculated that she can.
To indicate I said anything unfairly derogatory about her is to blatantly mis-characterize what I said.</p>

<p>I see this situation as something beyond aborting a fetus to save the life of the mother. The fetus is doomed. Regardless of what action is taken or not taken, it will not live. It will never make it to term and there is nothing anyone can do to make this unborn baby viable.
One has to sit back and ask - What would Jesus do? Would Jesus stand over this gravely ill woman and tell her that she must refuse a medical treatment that could save her life? Would Jesus see and understand this baby will never take a breath?
The compassionate and loving Jesus I know, would accept this reality and understand. He would want this woman to live to mother her children.</p>

<p>Very insightful posts. Paying3 tuitions references that there is a fundamental difference between Catholicism and Judaism as to when life begins. When does Judaism believe life begins? How is abortion viewed? Is that view different depending on the degree of conservancy?</p>

<p>Regarding Catholicism–Is the term “practicing” subjective or are there objective measures? Do many people draw that line at a different place in the sand? Why is Sat. night mass allowed in lieu of Sunday? Personally, I’ve always thought that was a great idea, but wondered as to why. </p>

<p>Someone pages earlier commented as to a non-Catholic receiving communion at mass. I thought was a huge no-no, and wasn’t to be done unless one was a Catholic in good standing.</p>

<p>Whoa. So a Jew can happily hand me over to the terrorists so they can put a bullet through my head-- “Fang? Over there, hiding in the closet.” But my Jewish friend, they must protect-- “Moskowitz? What Moskowitz? What do you mean, hiding under the bed? No, no, no Moskowitz here.”</p>

<p>Thanks, Talmud.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>But this will be true whenever one is considering aborting a fetus to save the mother’s life. That fetus will always be doomed, because if its mother dies, it dies as well.</p>

<p>** Ask your (non-rhetorical) ethnic questions here.**</p>

<p>Can someone please explain to me how Catholicism is an ethnicity? </p>

<p>A lot of posters on this thread have have ignored the OP’s original question and instead used it as an opportunity to express their bias towards the Catholic religion. How very PC and CC of you! </p>

<p>Am I the only one seeing this?</p>

<p>Threads take left turns all the time… The first few pages were pretty strongly anti-Catholic. Then there was some explanation from Catholics. People asked questions. I personally tried to answer some from my point of view… Sometimes I agree with the church, sometimes I don’t. But… yes, I’m biased towards the Catholic Church, and if I’m answering questions, my bias is probably pretty apparent… I’m Catholic! I’ve been pretty up front about that. (I’m also a Rice grad, and I’ll continue to be pretty biased towards Rice in the engineering threads, but I’ll also always put forth the fact that I’m an incredibly biased Rice alumna, too.)</p>

<p>I answered the question about a bindi a while back…!</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Catholic excommunication is expulsion from the church, not expulsion from heaven. Only God really knows what’s going on. So, the church here on earth can do all they darned well please with the church rules, but ultimately it’s God’s decision, from the Catechismal point of view. At least, that’s the answer from my parish priest. I complained about the same thing, skeptical trouble-maker that I am.</p>

<p>New question: What is it about Scandinavians and burying fish or soaking it in lye and thinking that the resultant gelatinous blob is “food”? I can’t think of a concept more horrifying than lutefisk, but there it is. I’m a quarter Norwegian, but I’m from Texas, so maybe I just don’t get it.</p>

<p>srystress: In traditional Judaism, a fetus is not a life. For the first five weeks, the fetus has no status; one passage in the Talmud says its value is comparable “to water.” After that, I’m not sure if there are any more benchmarks (i.e, is a six week fetus different from a thirty-eight week one), but the fetus is considered a potential life to be respected but not an entity of equal status to a person. The mother’s life or health being in danger is always a valid excuse for an abortion - if the doctor recommends it, the rabbi isn’t going to argue. While an abortion would not be permitted in the case of, say, an unwanted teenage pregnancy, there are authorities, even fairly traditional ones, that would accept risk to mental health as a valid motive; what precisely constitutes a mental health issue is, as in the secular world, open to interpretation.</p>

<p>Cardinal Fang: The Talmudic discussion you’re referring to is a relic of a time in which Jews had almost no interaction with non-Jews except as enemies that persecuted them. There are some today who would probably continue making the distinction, but very, very few. To provide religious justification for this obvious moral point, rabbis at some point in history pointed out that, if nothing else, allowing non-Jews to die because of a Jew’s unwillingness to violate a Jewish law would create animosity toward Jews.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>^ para 1, yes, plus: the moment that the entire baby’s head or most of its body appears outside the mother’s body…that is considered the first moment when its legal status is equal to that of the mother. </p>

<p>On Abortion, in broad sumary strokes: Jewish law permits abortion in order to preserve the life of the mother. Explanation: “A woman is not a vessel.”</p>

<p>Very strictly interpreted, “life of the mother” at first meant only her biological/physical life, while later interpretations wrapped in the concept of “her life” to also include her mental health and well-being. In situations of rape, very much a reality in war and persecution under Rome and throughout the Middle Ages, the rabbis began to factor in the woman’s mental health, as a compassionate response to brutal reality. A raped woman was not required to carry such a baby to term against her will, as that would violate “her life.” From those developments, some take away an understanding that the “life of the mother” always includes her mental health and well-being, along with her physical/biological presence.</p>

<p>"Can someone please explain to me how Catholicism is an ethnicity? </p>

<p>A lot of posters on this thread have have ignored the OP’s original question and instead used it as an opportunity to express their bias towards the Catholic religion. How very PC and CC of you! </p>

<p>Am I the only one seeing this? "</p>

<p>Toblin, I understand your concerns. I should have said “…ethnic and religious questions…” but I was trying to keep the thread title short and eye-catching. My fault. </p>

<p>And indeed I was hoping the comments would be more observational than philosophical/theological. In another thread there was a spirited discussion about why people would object to their kids attending a Catholic college, and I found some of the concerns to be really out-of-date and bizarre. So I was trying to get some unvarnished feedback about the concerns people have re Catholics, to inform me so I can better prepare my daughters for what they can expect as they proceed through life as Catholics. </p>

<p>I never dreamed the discourse would be as civil as it’s been, and would like to thank all participants for their calmness and objectivity.</p>

<br>

<br>

<p>Not always. There are plenty of cases where the fetus could make it to term before the mother dies - yet abortion would still be considered saving the life of the mother. If the fetus was 23 weeks or older; they could simply make a delivery and hope for the best from the baby. However at 11 weeks gestation and the mother at death’s door - there is no hope for this baby.</p>

<p>I’d also remind Toblin that the Op asked “what are beefs non Catholics have with Catholics?”</p>

<p>It is reasonable that things people believe(rightly or wrongly) about Catholics that they dislike will be in this thread. It is logical to expect complaints about Catholics here.</p>

<p>For example in the Reformation movement in Europe centuries ago, Protestants that took over what had been Catholic churches often removed and destroyed many of the statues, portraits and other items that celebrated (mostly)men important to the Catholics, that were spread throughout the church. It was their belief that so much attention to those men distracted one from the point of why they were there- to worship God.
Some believe today-rightly or not, that Catholics pay too much attention to dead men and women. While it may or may not be true, it is a beef some non-Catholics have with Catholics- and that is exactly what the Op asked.</p>

<p>I have enjoyed the turn the thread took toward doctrine and theology. Too bad we didn’t have some Protestant input as well.</p>

<p>I’ll return to the OP’s question --a concern I think some Protestants have about Catholics – that there’s too much drinking, and that it’s much more accepted. Do the Catholic posters feel this true? Of course that really shouldn’t be generalized to individuals, but as a group, do you think it holds? Do you think it has more to do with ancestry than religion? My H is 100% German cradle Catholic He completely agrees with me, but could it be the German bias rather than the Catholicism? My S is at a Catholic univ. where most of the students were originally of Irish ancestry. By all appearances, they seem very willing to condone alcohol use, more so than other campuses. A lot more, although technically they have strict rules on hard alcohol.</p>

<p>I was raised in a mainline Protestant church and IMO, drinking is much more expected/accepted in Catholicism. Maybe there were some Sat. night moonshiners in the pews, but they were certainly running under the radar and anti-alcohol statements were coming from the pulpit.</p>

<p>Also interested in alcohol use/acceptance in Judaism. I hestitate to post this question, but I really am curious, so please–let’s remain as civil as before!!</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>This I think is more cultural than religious. True, Irish Catholics have a deserved reputation for drinking, but Irish Protestants also drink. Germans, Catholic and Protestant, are not known as abstainers either. If you look at which cultures are more accepting of drinking, that doesn’t track well with religion.</p>

<p>Some Catholic colleges and universities (perhaps most?) have a lot of drinking, but plenty of other non-Catholic colleges and universities also have a lot of drinking.</p>

<p>This is a matter of personal opinion. Many, if not most, Catholics would disagree with me. This is how I see it, though. </p>

<p>It’s a matter of ethnicity, not Faith. Irish-Catholics, in the aggregate, drink too much. I think there are all sorts of reasons for this. It’s partly cultural. However, I think part of it may well be genetic. There is probably a genetic predisposition towards alcoholism and I am convinced that particular gene is more common among those with Irish ancestry. </p>

<p>While things have DEFINITELY changed, historically, the hierarchy of the American Catholic Church was Irish-American. For hundreds of years, the vast majority of bishops and cardinals in the American Catholic Church were Irish-Americans. They tended to condemn less harshly those who sinned in the ways typical of their own friends and family. And, yes, there were one heck of a lot of alcoholic priests, most of whom were of Irish ancestry. So, I think the Catholic Church in the US was less condemning of the abuse of alcohol than the universal Church was because the abuse of alcohol was more common among Irish-Americans and they were running things. It was sort of a standing joke among Catholics when I was young that if you had to confess you got drunk, you should seek out the Irish priest for confession. If you had any sexual sins to confess–especially if you were female–then you wanted to confess to the Italian priest. </p>

<p>Fillipino-Americans are usually Catholic and, at least among those I’ve know, alcoholism is rarely a problem. It also seems to be rare among Haitian-Americans, another group that is often very Catholic. This, I think, suggests that it is about ethnicity, not Faith. </p>

<p>However, Catholicism only condemns EXCESSES in activities like drinking, gambling, and eating. Getting drunk is a sin. Drinking booze moderately is not. Gambling away your home is a sin. Playing poker, buying a lottery ticket–or playing bingo in the parish hall!–is not. Gluttony is a sin. Having a blow out seafood dinner on Christmas Eve–an Italian tradition that grows out of the fact that Catholics were required to abstain from meat on Christmas Eve, but not to fast–is not. </p>

<p>It’s easier to say “no liquor, no dancing, no gambling” than it is to say, all of these are fine if done appropriately and in moderation. </p>

<p>Finally, I think in the US, part of this is about class. Have you ever read any of Father Greeley’s sociology books–not his novels? He talks about the difference in values between Catholics and Protestants. Partly becasue the Catholic Church has alway played a much greater role in acclimatizing immegrants to the US, church-going Catholics are one heck of a low poorer than Church going main-line Protestants IN URBAN AREAS. And, while there are alcoholics in every income bracket, poor people who do back-breaking manual labor six days a week are more likely to get drunk on a Saturday night. You’ll find many more of those folks in the pew of a Catholic Church on a Sunday afternoon then you will in the main-line Protestant church across town.</p>

<p>I think drinking probably <em>is</em> more accepted in Catholicism, judging by the fact that it’s accepted at <em>all</em>. (Monks make the best beer. :wink: )</p>

<p>Growing up, my mother’s side of the family was pretty fundamentalist Baptist. Being raised as a religious mutt, my brother and I were definitely the black sheep of the grandkids. What everyone else referred to as “card tables” were strictly “folding tables” in my grandma’s house, because playing cards were tools of the devil. We drank sparkling grape juice at Christmas dinner. Alcohol was right out, even a bottle of wine split among the twenty of us. (Things have changed somewhat since my grandparents passed… one of my cousins is a sommelier and another is a haute event planner in NYC, but there’s still not any drinking to the point of inebriation.)</p>

<p>On the other side of the coin, I’ve got a great picture of our priest in his Carmelite robes enjoying a Manhattan at our wedding reception, and another one of him swing dancing with my lower school drama teacher.</p>

<p>Life is to be enjoyed. I don’t think I could be in a religion that didn’t condone the moderate enjoyment of all aspects of life.</p>

<p>I need some help regarding understanding some elements of Jewish Law. Thanks in advance :-)</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own South Americans? </p></li>
<li><p>I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? </p></li>
<li><p>I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense. </p>

<ol>
<li>When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?</li>
<li>I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it? </li>
<li>A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this? Are there ‘degrees’ of abomination? </li>
<li>Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here? </li>
<li>Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die? </li>
<li>I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves? </li>
</ol></li>
<li><p>My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)</p></li>
</ol>