Ask your (non-rhetorical) ethnic questions here.

<p>^ Thanks for the answer, mom2ck (post #98).</p>

<p>aibarr, I enjoyed your post. I’ve worked in our parish rectory for 17 years (business manager, which is why I don’t always know my canon law :)), and I completely agree with your comment, “there are a number of Catholics who don’t fully understand their religion, and who haven’t had (what I consider to be) the benefit of formal catechumenal teaching with an adult understanding of the world… so there’s a lot of false teaching out there, too, and misperceptions abound.” At times, I’m amazed when I hear parishioners talking about what they believe is Catholic doctrine, written in stone. (Just as an example: Yesterday, a parishioner made the comment that you couldn’t be a Catholic in good standing if you believed in evolution.) </p>

<p>I wish the parish would offer classes to us cradle Catholics who are sometimes in need of a “refresher course.” RCIA grads are often a lot more knowledgeable.</p>

<p>Jewish women cannot divorce. The man is the only one who can grant divorce.</p>

<p>In old times, if a woman wanted to end her marriage with her husband (usually because of abuse), she would seek the help of her rabbi and the community, which would convince the husband to grant the divorce, or ‘Get.’ If the husband was uncooperative, the community would convince him that a Get is in his best interests (i.e. coercion/shunning him until he relents).</p>

<p>It really does not matter whether one has undergone official conversion to Judaism except when it comes to matters of marriage and Israeli citizenship. In order to have a marriage ‘blessed’ (figuratively) by a Jewish religious authority (one of the denominations, your congregation, your rabbi, etc), the marriage must be between 2 recognised Jews (although I imagine that the Reform movement has less of an issue with this). </p>

<p>In order to be able to claim Israeli citizenship as a Jew, one must be Jewish by relatively stringent Orthodox standards. That is, if one wants one’s children to be able to claim Israeli citizenship, and one spouse is not Jewish, that spouse must convert to Judaism as presided over by an Orthodox authority (I believe, either that or the conversion must involve a mikvah, or ritual bath). My mother converted from Catholicism with a Reform rabbi. Thus, while my father is Jewish and I have, um, physical evidence suggesting that I am Jewish as given to me in a Jewish ceremony, I cannot claim Israeli citizenship. That is fine with me, however, as I am currently of drafting age and do not intend on serving in the IDF. I identify myself as a Jew and intend on raising a Jewish family.</p>

<p>Also, I’d like to re-enforce the notion that “Messianic Jews” are not indeed Jews. In order to identify oneself as a Jew, one must believe in certain key ideas of Judaism. Belief in Jesus violates the very basis of Judaism, that The Lord is our God and that God is one. Personally, I believe that believing that a physical and corporeal entity is God is tantamount to idolatry, which violates another core belief of Judaism. </p>

<p>This does not mean that I believe Christians are in any way inherently evil, just as I do not believe that polytheistic Hindus or many types of South/Southeast Asian Buddhists which worship physical objects are inherently evil for their practises. Nor do I think there is anything wrong with Jews for Jesus, except that they misrepresent themselves as Jews. Unless one considers being called ‘Christian’ to be insulting, I don’t think I’ve insulted anyone. I don’t believe Christianity is evil, but simply misguided, just as logically one must consider any religion which one does not believe in (for example, a Christian must consider me misguided in the sense that they believe that my path to God is not the correct one). There is nothing wrong with civil disagreement.</p>

<p>From what I understand, there are still major problems sometimes in the Orthodox communities with husbands who won’t give a get (or try to extort money for it), and continue to refuse to do so no matter how much pressure they’re under. Which leads to the agunah situation.</p>

<p>In addition to divorce, Judaism also has the concept of annulment:</p>

<p>[Annulment</a> of Marriages - My Jewish Learning](<a href=“http://www.myjewishlearning.com/life/Life_Events/Divorce/Contemporary_Issues/Agunot/Annulment.shtml]Annulment”>http://www.myjewishlearning.com/life/Life_Events/Divorce/Contemporary_Issues/Agunot/Annulment.shtml)</p>

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</p>

<p>Just wanted to chime in on the diaconate question. There is some evidence of ordination rites for women deacons in the ancient Church. How do I know this?- major research paper in a Masters liturgy course) The two most ancient documents that identify this are the Didache and the Sheperd of Hermas, for those who really want to know. The dispute is whether those rites were truly equivalent to those of the male deacons. Deaconesses were generally used to assit at Baptisms, which in the early Church were done naked-hence a woman helped a female who was being baptized. There is also some evidence that deaconesses served in the same way as males during Mass- ie distributing the Body and Blood. It appears that deaconesses were far more popular in the Eastern Church and survived in some form through the 1000’s. </p>

<p>The Church’s current position, based on what is known, is that women cannot be ordained to the diaconate. But there is a possibility, (remote but not completely off the table, as with priestly ordination) with further research, that a Tradition of female ordination to the diaconate could be established.</p>

<p>And DonnaL- you are most definitely not invalid. In fact, you are one of the most valid people I have met in cyberland.</p>

<p>*Deaconesses were generally used to assit at Baptisms, which in the early Church were done naked-hence a woman helped a female who was being baptized. There is also some evidence that deaconesses served in the same way as males during Mass- ie distributing the Body and Blood. It appears that deaconesses were far more popular in the Eastern Church and survived in some form through the 1000’s. *</p>

<p>True.</p>

<p>But anyone can baptize. A person doesn’t have to be ordained to baptize. Those activities - distributing communion, performing baptisms, etc, are not limited to the ordained. So, I think it may have been a term used loosely to describe women who assisted in Church activities, but understood that such women were not ordained to Holy Orders. When I was given permission to distribute Communion, I went thru a little ceremony and I received permission from our bishop in writing, however, I know I was never ordained.</p>

<p>So what can a woman in the Catholic Church not perform? Confession? Marriage? </p>

<p>I know that a woman (with proper credentials, such as a nun) can administer last rites, baptism, and communion.</p>

<p>srystress: Jewish marriage/divorce law is actually a very fraught topic in some circles. </p>

<p>The basic requirements for a traditional Jewish marriage are extremely simple: The groom says something to a willing bride along the lines of “You are betrothed to me according to the laws of Moses and Israel” in the presence of two observant, adult males in good standing in the community. There have supposedly been cases now and then of young teens in modern orthodox communities who thought it was very romantic to do this, and were then horrified to learn that they were actually required to go through a religious divorce if they wanted to marry someone else.</p>

<p>In practice, Jewish marriages are somewhat more complicated, and involve a number of additional affirmations and rituals (ring-giving, the signing of the ketuba, or marriage contract, sharing a cup of wine). The presence of a rabbi is not technically required at all, so the denomination of the rabbi officiating doesn’t really matter. HOWEVER, many non-Orthodox marriages would not be considered valid by Orthodox authorities for a number of reasons. One would be if alterations to the traditional statements (even if the main, essential one is included) or clauses in the ketuba violate Orthodox interpretations of traditional law, suggesting that the couple is not actually being married “according to the laws of Moses and Israel.” The most common example of this would be the inclusion of a clause in the ketuba that states that the couple will not go through the traditional, quite sexist divorce process in the event of divorce. Another common reason why a non-Orthodox marriage would not be considered valid would be the use of women or non-Jews as witnesses. Technically, the use of non-observant Jews as witnesses would also be grounds for invalidating a marriage, but this would only be invoked in very rare circumstances, and I think it is fairly likely that even some modern Orthodox weddings could probably be challenged on this issue. </p>

<p>In Orthodox and Conservative Judaism, both partners must be Jewish. In Reform Judaism, only one needs to be. Whether or not both partners are considered Jewish also depends on the denomination - if one of the partners was converted by a conservative rabbi, that person will (usually) not be considered Jewish by Orthodox standards, and someone converted by a Reform Rabbi (or considered Jewish by patrilineal descent) will not be accepted as halachically Jewish (halacha is Jewish law) by either or the other two denominations. </p>

<p>All that being said, in practice, that status of one’s marriage, assuming the partners themselves don’t care, has little effect unless a person is getting divorced or getting remarried after a divorce. This is because children born out of wedlock are not considered illegitimate, but children who are indisputably born of adulterous unions (i.e, the mother is still married to another man and was not been living with her husband at the time of conception) are, and face severe restrictions on their participation in the community.</p>

<p>Mamzerim (the children born of adultery) are extremely rare, and the laws relating to them were probably intended more as a caution against adultery than as an actual attempt to punish the children. Indeed, there was a rule in ancient Jewish society that it was forbidden to inquire into the status of a suspected mamzer - a kind of early “don’t ask, don’t tell,” if you will. I’m not going to go into it unless someone cares to know more, but there are a number of reasons, both then and now, that it would take a set of very specific circumstances to produce a mamzer. </p>

<p>What is problematic is divorce. A Jewish divorce requires that a man grant his wife something called a “get,” which essentially releases them from their marital obligations. By ancient standards, Jewish divorce law was actually considered extremely progressive. For one thing, divorce was not reserved for cases of infidelity or other serious breaches; the equivalent of 'irreconcilable differences" would suffice. Additionally, while the husband ultimately had to grant the divorce, women could initiate the proceedings and use communal pressure to force her husband to give it to her. Although the burden of proof for a women seeking a get was (I think) somewhat higher than for a man, it was reasonably liberal - serious abuse, withholding sex, which was considered a marital right of women, failure to provide and even, according to one passage in the Talmud (oral law), the husband engaging in a particularly disgusting profession that makes him undesirable to the wife. If a husband wouldn’t consent, he could be shunned by the entire community; in some extreme cases, physical force was applied, although this was technically forbidden. If the husband remained recalcitrant, sympathetic rabbis would sometimes try to find reasons to declare the marriage invalid - if the man had misrepresented himself before the marriage, for instance, he might decide that her consent was given under false pretenses.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, the system is often far less progressive today, and not just because the system itself is no longer liberal by modern standards. Rabbis in many ultra-orthodox communities are frequently far less willing to apply pressure on husbands, as they tend to put the burden of making the marriage work on wives and don’t look kindly on ones who want to leave. There are many stories of women who spend years and sometimes the rest of their lives in a terrible limbo, unable to move on with their lives because of a vindictive ex. In less severe cases, even men in less extreme communities who want a divorce are willing to extort a better settlement from their wives by holding the get over her head. Fortunately, there are advocacy groups dedicated to helping these women.</p>

<p>If a person has previously been married to a non-Jew and wants to remarry, no divorce is necessary. If someone had been married to a Jew in a non-halachically valid ceremony and, for whatever reason, didn’t get a Jewish divorce, the rabbi presiding over the second marriage will probably question witnesses to verify that the previous marriage was invalid and then declare the parties free to marry. The case of a woman whose previous husband has refused a get is where technicalities come in. Very few people would deny that my parents, who were married in an otherwise halachic ceremony but whose witnesses were not Sabbath observant (this is usually the litmus test for valid witnesses), have a valid marriage. Indeed, had they been married by their current Orthodox rabbi rather than their previous conservative one, they would still probably have been able to use the same witnesses. If, however, my father abandoned my mother and wouldn’t give her a divorce, their rabbi might use the fact that their witnesses were not observant to free her from the marriage. For practical purposes, however, even people who have far more problematic marriages, from a traditional perspective, then my parents are accepted by the community as married under Jewish law. This is why, as far as I know, even couples who become Orthodox after their marriage rarely have a second ceremony as long as they had some semblance of a Jewish wedding originally.</p>

<p>Whew!</p>

<p>Ah - cross posted with JHS and paying3tuitions! That will teach me to leave a post for an hour…</p>

<p>IBFootballer- </p>

<p>Only the ordained can do the following:
Anointing of the sick- priest or bishop (a deacon cannot perform) (Sometimes called last rites)
Marriage- deacon, priest or bishop
Eucharist- priest or bishop
Confession(Penance)- priest or bishop
Confirmation- bishop only unless permission granted for particular circumstances
Holy Orders- bishop
Baptism- ordinarily deacon, priest or bishop, but in an emergency ANYONE, even a non- Catholic, non Christian can baptize as long as doing in accord with Church method and intention of the individual being baptized. </p>

<p>A nun, by the way, although having professed vows, is considered a member of the laity, She is not ordained.</p>

<p>Mom2- you are absolutely right about the current stance and interpretation of the Church regarding deaconesses and their lack of ordination. My only point was to show that the possible ordination of women to the diaconate is not as completely closed as that of ordaining women to the priesthood. Jesus did not select the deacons- he only selected the apostles.</p>

<p>OK, just curious: is the fact that Jesus chose men as all his apostles the sole or primary justification for the priesthood being closed to women forever? If so, then I have to say that my immediate, instinctive response (as a lawyer!) would be something to the effect that, well, he also chose all Jews, right? All of them living in what is now Israel, right? So if that’s the logic, then why isn’t the Catholic priesthood forever closed to everyone but Jewish Israelis? How does anyone know that these weren’t the essential attributes among the apostles chosen, rather than (or in addition to) their maleness? And so on. </p>

<p>I guess I’m just surprised that the maleness of the apostles is stated to be the immutable reason for not having female priests, given what seems to be the selectiveness of the attribute chosen for immutability. I’m certainly not looking to have an argument; it’s not my business what the Catholic Church does or doesn’t do unless it personally affects me. Which this obviously doesn’t. As I said, I’m curious.</p>

<p>Two wrinkles to Jewish divorce:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>it is a big problem (for a woman who wants a divorce) if the man is missing without being known to be deceased, because then he cannot give the ‘get’ that the woman would need to be divorced.</p>

<ul>
<li>it is a big problem (for a man who wants a divorce) if the wife is insane, because a ‘get’ has to be received by a woman in sound mental state.</li>
</ul></li>
</ul>

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</p>

<p>My husband’s a cradle Catholic. It’s been amusing as I’ve transitioned from “Catholic dunce” to “knower of all things Catechismal”. :wink: He’s suddenly saying things like, “Hmm… Maybe I should join the Knights of Columbus…” and “Hmm… Maybe I should become a deacon someday…!”</p>

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<p>(Hear, hear. I think that’s probably one of the reasons I responded when I did, how I did… Knee-jerk reaction to dispute the very idea of the non-validity of someone so clearly valid.)</p>

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<p>And this is precisely what the part of my brain says that makes me go 'round and 'round, because I agree with you… it’s always trouble when there’s an engineer or a lawyer or a scientist in the class at RCIA; we’re just predetermined to be skeptical and argumentative… If Jesus wanted for women to be constricted to the laity, then why didn’t He proclaim that outright? What business does the Vatican have to determine what God’s plans are for me? (personal crisis ensues…) Honestly, I’m not as ticked about closing the priesthood to women than I am about the fact that the Magisterium is restricted to men… The Magisterium being the governing Vatican body that, guided by the Holy Spirit, determines the teachings of the Catholic Church. THAT ruffles me.</p>

<p>But then I realize that more people know who Mother Teresa is than who Pope Benedict is, and the fact that both of the first two canonized American saints were women, and I know that there are women advisors to the Magisterium and the Episcopate… and suddenly I feel like maybe women aren’t as insignificant to the Catholic Church as my irritation at the no-women-priests thing would lead me to believe.</p>

<p>So while I still think it’s kind of bunk, I come back to the thought that the Catholic Church clearly isn’t denying the importance of women (I mean, who loves Mary? Catholics love Mary!), and that maybe priesthood isn’t something I should be as worked up about. But I really do grapple with that one.</p>

<p>Donna - excellent questions IMO.</p>

<p>My answer to all of this “doesn’t make sense to me” business is simply: who am I to question? I am not a canon lawyer, I am not a biblical scholar. There are people who dedicate their entire lives to this and know the answers to all the minutae (like Pipmom who knew some kinda obscure details from doing a master’s thesis). I am not educated enough to understand or form a valid opinion beyond opining on this thread.</p>

<p>I know a couple of canon lawyers (priests) and with all they know from their intense studies in Rome from all the best information available, they are not more questioning of the rules and doctrine; in fact, they follow the letter of the law more closely than anyone I know. They believe these things with all their hearts, because they KNOW those answers. Who am I to question without any basis other than “doesn’t make sense to me.” </p>

<p>I liken it to your teenagers rebelling against one of your rules because “it doesn’t make sense to them”…well, we all know how much their opinion means. They simply don’t have the perspective to understand why your rules make sense.</p>

<p>I’m not saying we should never question…these laws are many times made by men long dead in a different time, and we have trouble translating them to our time and place, but really, I always temper my opinion by equating myself to that rebellious teenager, because in terms of my Catholic education, that’s about what I am.</p>

<p>To answer the male priesthood question-
One of the reasons is that Jesus only chose men. Another reason is that the apostles, appointed by Christ to keep the church going, also only chose men, despite the fact that there were women disciples who were clearly close to Jesus. Paul, an apostle, chose Gentile Cristians as well as Jewish. The other main reason is that the priest, when performing a sacrament is acting “in persona Christi”- in the person of Christ, In other words, Christ is acting through the priest, regardless of the priest’s sinfulness, etc. Since the symbolism and ritual aspect of the Mass and the other sacraments are critical to the theological understanding of their meaning, the priest must be a man. In the same way, the bread must be bread, not a tortilla, for example- the wine must be wine, not grape juice. Christ, God who became a man, not a woman, must be represented by a man, not a woman. </p>

<p>These reasons are, of course, debatable by anyone who wants to debate them. As Catholics, we believe that Scripture and Tradition tell us all we need to know and that the Magisterium’s job (all the bishops teaching) is to interpret. I have tried to summarize their interpretation on this point.</p>

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<p>My parents always brought me up to ask “why,” at least. I’ll be okay if I’m given a valid answer. I just don’t feel as though I’ve been given enough of a valid answer yet.</p>

<p>I’ve read the Papal Encyclicals on the matter, and I’ve read apologists’ accounts, and I’ve read the Catechism, and I’ve noted that often I’m given an answer like “who are you to question?” which sounds to me a lot like “because I’m the mommy, that’s why,” which I don’t think is a particularly satisfying answer, either.</p>

<p>I’m someone who <em>wants</em> to understand why, too.</p>

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</p>

<p>Christ was God who became a human, though…</p>

<p>I understand the reasoning. It’s just something that doesn’t sit right with me.</p>

<p>Be assured that a lot of nuns ask the same questions.</p>

<p>^^aibarr, I totally agree with asking, I’m just saying you may never get a simple answer that scratches the itch. Sometimes “mommy” can’t boil down all of her 50 years of experience in a form digestible enough for a teen who hasn’t been there done that…sometimes because I said so just has to do it until they get the perspective of time and experience. It doesn’t mean they can’t question and get some kind of an answer that makes some kind of sense to them. But it may never actually “feel” right until they have kids of their own. Enough with the analogy…you get my point.</p>

<p>I was actually going to add to my last post (and then you proved it with yours) that it sounds like you have had the benefit of good education through RCIA and you seem very diligent in checking things out on your own. That’s more than most of us would do. Good for you. It sounded to me, though, like you have less problems now after some research than you did before, so that is what should be happening. I think if things were really wrong with a religion and a church, it would raise lots of red flags. Hope you find the answers you need (and then pass them on to us!)</p>

<p>I hear you aibarr- in the broadest sense, God became human, not just a man. </p>

<p>The Magisterium is not, however, the governing or ruling body of the church. It is the teaching body of the church, tasked with interpretation of Scripture and Tradition for all times. Jesus didn’t directly teach a lot of things. He was timeless as God, but a man of his own times. Never heard of stem cell research, never encountered modern medicine, etc. </p>

<p>The Magisterium only teaches within the context of Scripture and Tradition. Feminist theologians will argue that of course God became a man, not a woman, and only chose men as apostles because in that society, women were second class citizens and nobody would follow them anyway. </p>

<p>On modern issues, the Magisterium does take into account secular, scientific teachings provided by men and women, Catholic and non- Catholic as it seeks to interpret. </p>

<p>I have no problem with questioning- by Catholics or non- Catholics- I, too have never been a “because I said so” type of follower. I left the Church for many years because of the snits I would get into over many of the church’s most difficult teachings. I still struggle with many of the teachings, particularly when I feel that they hurt people and keep them away from God. But I seek to understand. I do my best to follow Jesus’ basic commands, and I do my best to follow the church’s teachings because I believe they will do no harm.</p>

<p>No worries. It’s something I know I’m destined to grapple with… I’ll keep chewing on it and asking questions about it, and either I’ll come to an understanding before I die, or I’ll come to an understanding afterwards, or it won’t matter in the end anyhow!</p>

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</p>

<p>Which is precisely why I’ll keep yelping and being a nuisance. ;)</p>

<p>*OK, just curious: is the fact that Jesus chose men as all his apostles the sole or primary justification for the priesthood being closed to women forever? *</p>

<p>Jesus is the Bridegroom and his Bride is the Church. It’s a male/female marriage imagery. Male Priests are acting in persona Christi (in the person of Christ), therefore they must be male.</p>

<p>I have no problem with questioning- by Catholics or non- Catholics- I, too have never been a “because I said so” type of follower</p>

<p>Thankfully, nothing in Catholicism relies on blind faith. Everything can be logically explained. The answer is not, “because I said so.” Anyone who gives that answer is lazy or misinformed. There is a logical answer for every question.</p>

<p>But then I realize that more people know who Mother Teresa is than who Pope Benedict is, and the fact that both of the first two canonized American saints were women, and I know that there are women advisors to the Magisterium and the Episcopate… and suddenly I feel like maybe women aren’t as insignificant to the Catholic Church as my irritation at the no-women-priests thing would lead me to believe.</p>

<p>In actuality, the Catholic Church is the most pro-woman institution on this planet.</p>