<p>Jym…You have had all the info regarding my post as you have requested or needed to offer feedback. The prior posts from years ago were not relative or necessary to the problem at hand. You did not like my reaction to your advice and thus you decided to go back in time to attempt to disclose my name. That is disgusting. I have already mentioned that one of my sons is working on something that is due to be announced shortly. How do you think it would look if I was on this board talking about the trouble I am having with his sister? My best friends son is the closest thing to me as having a fifth child. When he was not happy at Scranton I was there for him and my friend. Do you have that in your own life? I have had enough of your attitude and trying to knock me down because I don’t agree with the other parents on this particular thread. This is just a poisoness little group and I hope that one day I could post and let you know personally that my daughter is doing fine even if I did not follow your therapist advice. I did a fine job with my others and yet my daughter has been a struggle. You think you know people through a screen but we all share and tell what we want to keep our identities private. If I knew you were a bulldog in your approach I would have posted under a different name.</p>
<p>busdriver wrote:</p>
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<p>I feel this is a personal opinion or value. Frankly, I would have paid the cost for any college my kids chose. We left the decision up to them. I didn’t weigh job prospects. They are very good students and I knew they would make the most of any school they had chosen to attend. If they wanted UVM, fine. If they wanted Brown, fine. </p>
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<p>I respect your opinion. However, I would have paid the cost for my kids to attend any school and feel their success is based on who they are and not what school they attend. We all obviously feel differently about this. </p>
<p>That’s different than someone saying that non-elite private schools are not worth the money for anyone and they can obtain as good of an education at non-flagship state university. That is a sweeping generalization and not a specific opinion about decisions in one’s own family.</p>
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<p>Exactly.</p>
<p>M3-
Please do not try to tell me what I think or what I did as (a) you have no clue and (b) you are incorrect. It has become painfully apparent in many of the threads you have posted in , that when posters ask you direct questions you either ignore them or selectively respond. It is also becoming unfortunately clearer where your daughter gets her temper and defensive, name-calling posture when confronted with dishonesty. And I do agree with Kajon about how your daughter must feel about your feelings towards her school. I hope you get yourself and your family to therapy as has been suggested to you in other threads, and address these tangled issues. Best of luck to you with that.</p>
<p>momma-three, I totally understand wanting to protect your identity and certainly have made no attempts on CC to disclose any identifiable information in my posts responding to you. I have only responded to your own posts and what you have chosen to share on CC. When you asked where I got something, I responded, based on reading your OWN posts. I respect your wanting to keep identity private. I’m only responding to what you have posted, albeit it is confusing at times, but if you are going to ask me where I got the information, I am not going to ignore you because I got it from reading your posts.</p>
<p>I will add that while I respect protection of privacy very much so, I also value honesty. One can opt to be private on CC about certain matters and not post about those matters. That is an approach to keeping certain facts private. For example, you have chosen to not reveal your child’s college name. I respect that. I am a very honest person and so I think privacy can be attained without being misleading or dishonest. Privacy can be attained by choosing what to reveal and what not to reveal on a forum. I personally am not into changing information about my kids on CC. Everything I have ever posted about them is the truth. Of course nobody is obligated to reveal more than they desire on a public forum in order to maintain some privacy. But I would hope members post honestly. A member can try to maintain privacy without misleading. That is what I have chosen to do on CC.</p>
<p>Soozi…I am most surprised by your behavior on this board today but at least it did one thing IT CURED ME OF EVER DISCLOSING ANOTHER THING ABOUT ANY OF MY KIDS. </p>
<p>And Isoker…You sent your kid to a private Jesuit school and you were the antagonist. Your tuition dollars at that school could have been spent far better unless your kid received a large merit award which cost you less than the state school. I knew you were up to something when you posted on my other thread. Let it go I do not like that school. Why does it bother you what I think?</p>
<p>Can you three take this fight to PM’s?</p>
<p>Way to completely hijack the thread. Good grief.</p>
<p>Well, I am a sucker. I’m sure if my son was completely in love with a college that wasn’t well known/great job placement, we would have paid for it. He is very practical, and was the one who decided our local flagship was excellent (U of Washington), and said, “Why would I want to go to a far more expensive school for a worse education”? Though I’m sure the quality of the education is in the eye of the beholder. He did pick the most costly school that gave no merit aid…which is painful, but he is very, very happy. If he had picked a 200K school and was not challenged, was not happy, had poor job prospects…we would be very discouraged.</p>
<p>No Soosie… There is nothing confusing unless you go back to posts that were written years ago. At that time I tried to keep my identity a secret. There was no need to start to go back because at that time I never even mentioned that I had a third son. He was done with admissions so who ever thought that I would become addicted to CC and keep posting. There was nothing other than meanness in the display of posters such as the one mom who has her hair in a dither because I don’t like Scranton. She sends her kid to a Catholic school and behaves with the vengence of a dog with rabbies. As did you and Jym. Now I know that a forum is a forum and therapy is to get real advice. I am sick from the meanness that came out in some of you today. Good luck.</p>
<p>Yes Brooklynborn…It is so obviously personal…Some people need to get a life.</p>
<p>momma-three, I think if you want to discuss it further, email would be better. I am sorry you don’t like my behavior on the thread. I don’t know what I should have said when you asked me about where I would have learned your D’s stats. ONLY because you asked, I responded with where I read them…in your posts. Otherwise, I would not have mentioned anything or “gone back” to old posts as you say. And honestly, the posts have been confusing to follow. Nothing really more to say. </p>
<p>I respect your opinions as to what colleges are “worth” the money or not for your own family but you have made some generalizations about types of colleges and I think those generalizations are not true but more your own values, which you surely are entitled to.</p>
<p>I also have tried to help you on many threads.</p>
<p>thoughts </p>
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soozie listed “Conn College, Wheaton, Dickinson, Scranton, Skidmore, Emerson, Centre, Muhlenberg,” and
“Goucher, Grinell, Rollins, Ithaca, Syracuse, BU, Scranton,”</li>
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<p>Now I admit to not being all that up on the mid tier LACs (since our kid wanted a school that had arch and/or engineering) but i THINK thats a pretty diverse group there (not just BU and Syracuse in size, but in selectivity/etc) I mean does Scranton belong with Dickinson, let alone Grinnell? I don’t know.</p>
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<li><p>we sometimes debate quality of education vs career prospects. I think for ‘colleges that change lives’ IE mid tier LACs - that can be where the difference becomes severe. More so than at tippy top private vs a tippy top State U. Of course if a kid has strong job search/personality skills, they can succeed anywhere. for a kid not headed to grad school, and relatively weaker on those skills, and taking out serious debt, I could see concern about financial viability post college. Of course its often also those kids who would get lost at a large public. A dilemma.</p></li>
<li><p>I had a third point, but I have forgotten it</p></li>
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<p>There was nothing hard to follow…You chose to go back and think you found a hidden secret. No secrets here just a little info not provided at that time due to preserving identity. Years later you and Jym as well as that Isokker…decide for some unknown reason to go back and bring up what I don’t even remember writting or who I was writing it for. I really don’t care what you guys have to say at this point because it did not present any of you in good light in my opinion…oops am I allowed to say that. The one I really get a kick out of is the one who has her kid at the Christian school. Thanks for letting me know that my opinion meant that much to you that you wanted to stir up something that you have no clue about.</p>
<p>I appreciate that busdriver and others are trying to get this thread on track. So often threads take all sorts of twists and turns. I am sorry I have wasted so much time in the past with information that has clearly fallen on deaf ears.</p>
<p>As for the cost/value of college, it is so hard to predict what a person will do with their education down the road, so how can one truly put a “value” on the “cost” of that education? For every poster who thinks that spending a lot of money on their child’s education is a waste, there are equally as many posters who are thrilled that they are fortunate to be able to do that for their kids. The only thing that most (but not all) posters seem to agree on is that it is a bad idea to go into serious debt to fund an undergraduate education. That said, I also know many people (more often it is the women but not always) who spend a fortune on a professional degree (MBA, JD, MD, etc) and then do not stay in their career or use their degree, and may be seen as not having gotten the value for their education and probably have big loans to repay. </p>
<p>Each of us has our own benchmark as to what we think is “reasonable” to spend on an undergraduate education and what or how we will assess the value or worth of any particular school. But what seems to be getting a strong reaction here is the sweeping overgeneralizations about the value of most state schools, and many expensive private (lesser known or lower tier) schools. It is pretty insulting to the many families who have kids at these schools, and who have been willing to pay for their kids education. As many have said here and in other threads, there are bright, motivated and driven students with a quest for knowledge and learning at all sorts of schools. And these schools would not stay in business if there were not students desirous of attending them.</p>
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<p>BBD, I purposely listed a RANGE of private colleges between the two extremes that m-3 was making in her point between non-flagship state U’s and elite privates and those not being worth the money. I listed colleges that I have helped other students apply to (just last year I had a student get into Scranton who was admitted but went to Stonehill, though got into his state U, which was UConn) and actually my younger D got into the BFA in musical theater programs at Ithaca and Syracuse which are HIGHLY competitive (lower than 5% admit rate), and I have students this year applying to BU and Rollins and I have suggested the others to other students and one of them actually matriculated at Dickinson. My point was that this range of schools were all worth the bucks to many families. I don’t get m-3’s point that if you can’t get into an elite private, go to some school like Ramapo, Johnson State or Salem State (not knocking those schools but making a point), because by the same token, she is complaining that the level of work and the student body’s level of motivation at her D’s non-selective state U is unsatisfactory. So, maybe it IS worth the money to go to a school like Muhlenberg, Skidmore, or Sranton where the work might be more challenging and the general study body more a certain kind of learner. That said, I think so much of it depends on WHO you are, not the school you attend. A motivated, driven, achiever type will do well wherever he/she is planted.</p>
<p>The second point about career prospects and the college you attend…that you bring up and busdriver did a bit as well…not everyone chooses a college with that in mind so much. I just wanted my kids to get a good college education that they really enjoyed and made the most of. I figured the rest would follow due to who they are as people. I did not examine the job prospects for graduates at their respective schools. They went to college mostly to be educated. They received that and have done well following graduation.</p>
<p>momma-three, as you are addressing me in post 251, I will say that I believe I have posted respectfully toward you at all times. </p>
<p>As far as 1sokkermom talking about a Christian school, you also stated that your D’s private university was a Jesuit school and she was required to take theology and that was difficult for her and she fared better in the courses in her major which is professionally oriented. Forums are a discussion and for those of us reading along over many years, and have even posted in an effort to help you, I don’t think I should be faulted for referring to your own posts. I have done nothing to reveal identity and believe you deserve to keep that private. But what you post here on CC, well, we are reading it and that is not private. If you question where I learned the information I state and say you never stated it, I look foolish as if I made it up and so feel compelled to respond by providing you with your own posts where you stated the information. It is not an attempt to reveal any identity as I think as a member you choose what to keep private and what to reveal. If you choose to reveal something here, it has been your own choice. We are just reading your own posts here and nothing more.</p>
<p>However, I only wish to be responsible for my OWN posts, and not what any other member has chosen to post, thanks.</p>
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<p>I’m sure glad you prefaced that last sentence with IMHO, because that shows just what it is… an opinion. But obviously you judge parents who do choose to send their kids to one of the non-top LACS for $50,000. I find it very offensive that you make such generalizations and are trying to convince people that some of us parents whose children have chosen the non-top LACS are not spending wisely. Not sure you will get it, but I’m going to try to explain it anyway.</p>
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<p>This is what you said to soozie. I’m one of those parents whose children went to (with our full encouragement and support) two of those non-top LACs. In fact, soozie mentioned Muhlenberg. By your logic we are not spending wisely because my daughter could be getting the same education at our flagship. You are so far off the mark on this that it makes it difficult to take seriously anything else you say. My daughter was specifically looking for a school with a strong theatre program. I don’t even think our large flagship offers a theatre performing major. And if it does, it is certainly not considered to have the reputation for training as the programs listed on the musical theatre forum of CC. Muhlenberg’s theatre program is nationally known and my daughter has been thrilled by the training she has gotten there. She was admitted to one of the honors programs and began it, but as she became more and more involved with other activities on campus, found she couldn’t give the time needed to complete the necessary coursework (some of the classes conflicted with other things she wanted to do for her major) so she dropped out of the honors program. </p>
<p>Same with D1 who attended Syracuse. She knew she wanted to major in communications/public relations and frankly, the program at our flagship is sorely lacking. Syracuse’s Newhouse School of Communication is one of the top three in the country. Yes, better rated than those at the Ivies. But again, by your logic, we shouldn’t spend the money for a non-top private and instead send her to our flagship because it will provide her with the same education. </p>
<p>As you can see, it’s your generalizations like this that lead many of us to question your knowledge and opinions of the college selection process. When you judge the schools and programs that our children choose (often in consultation with the parents) and tell us that it’s a waste of our money, it only looks absurd. </p>
<p>As we went through the college application process, it coincidentally ended up that many of the schools that D1 applied to because of their strong reputation for communication, were also some of the same schools D looked at for theatre. Some were major flagships, some were medium-sized privates like Syracuse, and there were some LACs. Both of our kids had very successful academic experiences in high school (as jnm123 can attest; his kids, too, were as academically competitive as ours were), but never did we once think to ourselves, “No non-top LACs for our kids… the state flagship school is good enough for them.” From what I recall, his kids also applied to and were accepted at a wide range of universities/colleges/LACs. Neither one ended up at our flagship because neither of their kids felt a fit at our flagship. I know they’ve both been very happy and successful at their respective choice schools, and yes, the costs are more on par to a private, but who are you to say he and his wife shouldn’t be paying what they are.</p>
<p>Jnm123 - ain’t it the truth about salaries and income over the years. I don’t know that if H had started out with the income level he is at now, we’d be living here, and our families would have never met! So see, a few years of getting started and established has its benefits! And I’d not have anyone to edit stuff for me (feel free to take out the invisible red marker on CC and hack away at my post).</p>
<p>terwitt brings up another point…it is not just the school you attend, but the program within it. Like one of her daughters, I have a daughter who sought a musical theater program. Some of the very highly regarded MT programs are not located in the most selective universities…for example: Penn State, Syracuse, Ithaca, University of Cincinatti. There are a LOT of families who would do anything to get their kid into one of these MT programs! They would think of it as very worth the money. </p>
<p>In my D2’s case, she could not even consider our state school, University of Vermont, as it does not even offer a BFA in MT. Not an option. </p>
<p>For that matter, while we think UVM is a very fine school, D1 would not have gone there as she wanted to major in architecture and UVM doesn’t have it.</p>
<p>You can’t compare getting a BFA at one of the schools I mentioned with getting as good of an education at one’s own state U if one own’s sate U doesn’t even offer such a program. Terwtt’s two kids and my own two kids are examples of that.</p>
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<p>Revised numbers:
I believe that list price is beginning to flatten: CMU, once the pricing leader, has two consecutive years of <3.% increases.</p>
<p>DS freshman year 2002, Tuition, R & B: $34800. USNWR was then two years behind (3 years at time of 2002 announcemnt. I had budgeted * $30,000, w/o $2k scholarship which was award near Sept.*.)
DS graduation yr 2006, Tuition, R & B; $41,000, returning student. Tuition alone > total 2002.
CMU’s advertised 2010, tuition, R & B: $52,000. Entering freshman.</p>
<p>I know that we can’t do it today, even though we were then full pay, The busts of the financial markets 2000, 2002, and 2008, have not been kind. We barely recovered by 2006 and only with high loan hedging and above average risk management.</p>
<p>M3. No, I do not have a kid at Scranton. I don’t care for the city. My kids are out of college-Rice and Penn, respectively. I had a difficult child and survived by actually taking steps and listening to advice. Good luck with your D and Kean. Kean is NOT the flagship.</p>
<p>Just because of the way this conversation has drifted, I will add that my daughter did not choose to go to THE most “prestigious” school that accepted her for college, and chose something else for herself for other reasons.</p>
<p>I completely supported this and would have happily paid for her to go to the school of her choice, personally. School is what you make of it. to add yet another cliche, “YOu get out of it what you put into it.”</p>
<p>The book OUtliers by Malcom Gladwell is interesting on this subject, imho.</p>
<p>I still believe the schools are overpriced for what the market can bear, what the students and parents can “really” afford, and find Longprime’s post interesting. Maybe
SlitheyTove’s freinds with the infants won’t, in fact, need a million dollars to educate their twins in 17 years. One can hope. ;)</p>
<p>“I find it very offensive that you make such generalizations and are trying to convince people that some of us parents whose children have chosen the non-top LACS are not spending wisely”</p>
<p>And I find it very offensive that some are choosing to continue to attack one specific poster, merely for giving their personal opinion, as they have the right to do. They are making their own judgements for their own children, not yours. When is enough, enough? If you are comfortable with your own families decisions, then you should not become enraged when others have different opinions. I guarantee you that most of my friends, coworkers and family members would think we were complete idiots for having spent 500K before kids even stepped the first foot into college…if they knew.</p>
<p>“friends with the infants won’t, in fact, need a million dollars to educate their twins in 17 years. One can hope.”</p>
<p>I appreciate those who have lightened up, and those getting us back to topic.
God help us all, poetgrl^^</p>