Athletes, Minorities Outperform Legacies

<p>“I agree with jgonzo220, all the little perks reallly don’t matter, legacy and/or race is only a last resort. I have the same excellent credentials as a white friend and I am black and we were both rejected by Duke.”</p>

<p>Yea, how do these “urms don’t earn anything” people justify my rejection from Boston Univeristy. I am not saying I am a genius, but my SATs and GPA was much higher than their average. I hate to post unverifiable things (cough, cough) but my WHITE neighbor had an SAT score 100 points, lower than mine, yet was accepted and I was flat out rejected. College admissions are a crapshoot. I got into GaTech’s BME program, the 4th best in the US, but was waitlisted at Rutgers engineering. All the other engineering schools I applied to weren’t even on the same level as GaTech, but they still rejected me.</p>

<p>“Studies of graduation rates at schools with actual rigorous academic standards (Cornell, Michigan, Berkeley, etc.) have already shown that URMs graduate at a much lower rate than ORMs.”</p>

<p>Verify please.</p>

<p>“rewarding based on performance is an even larger part of the real world. quite frankly i doubt any potential patient would rather have a diverse but underqualified heart surgeon than an undiverse but skilled one.”</p>

<p>Blacks with lower MCAT scores still graduated medical school at the same rates as whites. Data collected by JBHE shows that at the vast majority of the nation’s leading medical schools, the black graduation rate is very high. In fact, at seven of the 14 schools that supplied graduation rate data by race to JBHE, the black graduation rate was a perfect 100 percent. The seven high-ranked medical schools with a black graduation rate of 100 percent are the Mayo Medical School, Vanderbilt University, the Uni-versity of Chicago, the University of Pittsburgh, the University of Virginia, the Mount Sinai School of Medicine, and the University of Alabama at Birmingham.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.jbhe.com/features/47_medicalschools.html[/url]”>http://www.jbhe.com/features/47_medicalschools.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Please PM sybbie. She was the one who had the link to the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education article that had the stats. The findings were that URM graduation rates in places like Harvard or Yale were only a few percent below those of ORMs. The URM graduation rates at Berkeley, Cornell, Michigan, etc. were more than 10% below those of URMs.</p>

<p>It is almost impossible to flunk med school (graduation rates around 96%). It doesn’t mean you are a qualified doctor. A 2003 study on allopathic (MD) med schools found that that out of all US allopathic med schools, Howard and Meharry produced the highest proportion of disciplined (ie crappy doctors who messed up) doctors. It is not a coincidence that they have some of the lowest MCAT scores of any allopathic med school, if not the lowest.</p>

<p>"Study of punished doctors notes 4 schools</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.sunspot.net/news/health/b...alth-headlines[/url]”>http://www.sunspot.net/news/health/b...alth-headlines&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>By Jack Dolan and Andrew Julien
Special To The Sun
Originally published June 29, 2003</p>

<p>A handful of medical schools in the United States and abroad graduate troubled doctors at about 10 times the rate of the best schools, an eight-month Hartford Courant investigation found.
Four medical schools - the Autonomous University of Guadalajara in Mexico, Howard University in Washington, Manila Central University in the Philippines and Meharry Medical College in Nashville, Tenn. - ranked at the bottom in analyses of three databases containing records of disciplinary actions against thousands of physicians across the United States.</p>

<p>Other medical schools also fared poorly in The Courant’s review, but only Guadalajara, Howard, Manila Central and Meharry appeared in the bottom 5 percent of about 200 schools ranked by rates of disciplinary actions against graduates in each analysis. Together, these large, well-established schools have produced more than 600 doctors cited by licensing boards for negligence, incompetence, sexual assault, drug abuse or fraud.</p>

<p>History of concern</p>

<p>Within the medical profession, some of these schools have long been watched with concern. Howard and Meharry ranked at the bottom of a National Science Foundation-funded survey of U.S. medical school quality in 1977, and questions have been raised about Guadalajara for years.</p>

<p>Although it is difficult to draw conclusions about individual doctors based on where they went to school, the Connecticut newspaper’s findings point to a link between medical schools that have raised concerns in various settings and troubling behavior by some of their graduates.</p>

<p>‘Incredible information’</p>

<p>“This is incredible information,” said Dr. Rebecca Patchin, chairwoman of the American Medical Association’s council on medical education. “This could shake up the whole community and force people to take another look at the licensing criteria.”</p>

<p>The reasons for the poor showing of these schools are unclear, but most have one thing in common: a practice of admitting students with lower grades or scores on standardized tests who might have trouble being accepted in many other places.</p>

<p>At least one school, Guadalajara, has accepted would-be doctors who never finished college.</p>

<p>“There is no excuse for students being allowed into medical school if they aren’t adequately prepared,” said Dr. Sidney Wolfe, director of health research for Public Citizen, a consumer group based in Washington.</p>

<p>“Maybe this means that it’s worth requiring that anyone practicing medicine in this country had adequate preparation before medical school,” Wolfe said.</p>

<p>Study criticized</p>

<p>The findings of The Courant drew a sharp response from the head of the trade group representing U.S. medical schools, who said it was impossible to pin the performance of physicians on the schools they graduated from because too many other variables determine success or failure.</p>

<p>“I think it’s kind of an irrational approach to analyzing a very complex set of issues,” said Dr. Jordan Cohen, president of the American Association of Medical Colleges, who characterized the effort as “simplistic” and “foolish.”</p>

<p>“I don’t think there are any bad medical schools” in the United States, Cohen said. “That’s a null set.”</p>

<p>The Courant analyzed national and state databases containing the type of disciplinary information consumers can get through “physician profile” Web sites run by state licensing boards.</p>

<p>The broadest database, compiled by Public Citizen, contained information on more than 19,000 physicians disciplined between 1990 and 1999 by state licensing boards, the federal Medicare and Medicaid programs, the Food and Drug Administration, and the Drug Enforcement Administration.</p>

<p>The Courant also obtained “physician profile” databases from two large-population, geographically distinct states, California and Ohio, which together contain the records for about 240,000 doctors who have held licenses over the past 50 years. The California database also contains information on some malpractice payments made by physicians.</p>

<p>Study’s methodology</p>

<p>The schools represented were then ranked according to rates of disciplined graduates. After eliminating small schools with statistically insignificant numbers of graduates, only Guadalajara, Howard, Manila and Meharry consistently stood out with the highest rates of disciplined doctors in all three databases.</p>

<p>In California, approximately one of every 10 graduates from each of the schools has faced disciplinary action. For most schools, fewer than half that many graduates have been disciplined.</p>

<p>Admission standards</p>

<p>The schools differ in many ways, but the clearest common denominator is their flexible admission standards.</p>

<p>The two U.S. schools, Howard and Meharry, have played a critical role in the history of American medical education, training generations of black physicians when the doors to most schools were largely open only to whites. Doctors trained at these schools have gone on to provide care for many who were being turned away by all-white hospitals, or by physicians who refused to treat minorities.</p>

<p>They are also among a handful of historically black institutions that attract students who often come from underprivileged backgrounds and may score lower on standardized tests.</p>

<p>“Many, although not all, of our students come from disadvantaged backgrounds and therefore have not had the same educational advantages as other students in their formative years,” Meharry spokeswoman Jill Scoggins said in a statement.</p>

<p>Howard and Meharry refused the newspaper’s requests to meet with school officials. Instead, The Courant provided the schools with a written summary of the analysis and a list of questions.</p>

<p>Howard officials declined to comment. Officials at Manila Central did not respond to questions about the newspaper’s findings.</p>

<p>Opportunity in Mexico</p>

<p>The Autonomous University of Guadalajara also has more flexible admissions standards, but for a different reason. The school draws U.S. citizens south of the border by catering to college students who do not have the grades, or the Medical College Admission Test scores, to get into a medical school in the United States.</p>

<p>“We don’t frown on someone with a ‘B’ average,” said Peter Himonidis, a Guadalajara dean. “We provide an opportunity for people who are determined to become doctors but are denied that opportunity at home.”</p>

<p>While the majority of Guadalajara’s graduates go on to practice without tarnished records, others have dismayed courts and regulators across the country with their lack of preparation for the safe practice of medicine.</p>

<p>Insufficient training</p>

<p>Dr. Jose Nabut of Florida, a graduate of Guadalajara, seriously injured at least five patients using a surgical technique that plaintiffs’ lawyers said he learned by practicing on a pig at a weekend seminar after graduation. One of those patients, Glenn O’Loughlin, required eight corrective surgeries after Nabut mistakenly stapled shut his bile duct during what should have been a routine gallbladder removal.</p>

<p>O’Loughlin said he was stunned to discover, much later, that Nabut had been accepted at Guadalajara without earning a college degree.</p>

<p>“If I had known any of that, I never would have gone to him,” O’Loughlin said. “But when your insurance company refers you to a doctor, you just trust that they know what they’re doing.”</p>

<p>Jack Dolan and Andrew Julien are reporters for The Hartford Courant, a Tribune Publishing newspaper."</p>

<p>“I get tired of this “legacies are rich” kind of thing…I’m a legacy at Yale but believe me, my parents are decidedly middle class and don’t donate “tons” of money to Yale.”</p>

<p>Indeed, I guess you could say that I am your analogue at Princeton. It is irritating when I tell people that I am legacy, often times in response to something they asked first, and its immediately evident within the look you get in response that they are wondering if you’re some kind of bigshot development case. I come from a middle class family with both parents employed just like thousands of other American households. </p>

<p>Maybe the admissions office did cut me a miniscule bit of slack when looking at my application, but I still worked my butt off for the better part of 3 years to even consider applying to Ivy-level colleges in the first place.</p>

<p>I attended one of those big three schools long ago as a non legacy, and I thought it was great that classmates were there whose fathers and grandfathers had also attended. Somehow, in today’s world of complaining about things, that has changed.</p>

<p>I note that the study has 28 schools included. I think the legacy “issue” is quite different from place to place. My belief is that being a legacy harms your chances for admissions at HYP, and possibly a few other places, because there is a quota on legacies. The schools tend to manage it to keep it below 10 or 11%. You are evaluated in the context of the other legacies, and at those schoool, that is a more highly competitive pool. There is very little data released on his subject, but I once was able to find a reference from a WSJ article quoting Harvard’s dean that the legacy matriculants had SAT scores that averaged 2 points below the class average. That is a far cry from the reported 47 point advantage from the 28 schools in the study.</p>

<p>Also, it is my conjecture that if you can select 30% of a subgroup and get essentially the same scores as you get from taking 8% of the larger group, it implies that the subgroup is quite highly qualified. </p>

<p>Of course, the schools enjoy indicating that it is a positive factor because they believe that doing so increases alumni contributions to the school. It is much less a factor at the upper elite schools than anyone imagines.</p>

<p>I’m a black student and moreover a black athlete in predominately white sports, Tennis and Swimming. I have done considerably well during High School and I am Glad to be going to Swarthmore next year. I have to say that I would much rather get into a school because of my stats and the proven ability to suceed in a collegiate atmosphere than to know that my admission was based on the fulfillment of some quota.</p>

<p>I think Norcalguy has it exactly right.</p>

<p>Athletes and URMs have access to special support systems, but legacies are indistinguishable from other students on campus and have no such special help.</p>

<p>Certainly some URMs and athletes avail themselves of support prgms on campus, but let’s not pretend that every writing center or academ support prgm exists for them alone. Many of these prgms are the result of the ADA and are used by many White students.</p>

<p>I’d just like to say that quantifying ‘sucess’ with retention rates is unfair. Dropping out does not automatically mean ‘dumb’ like a low gpa can. People drop out of all sorts of schools due to family or monetary reasons, and it just happens that this is relatively common in minority communties.</p>

<p>“Blacks with lower MCAT scores still graduated medical school at the same rates as whites. Data collected by JBHE shows that at the vast majority of the nation’s leading medical schools, the black graduation rate is very high. In fact, at seven of the 14 schools that supplied graduation rate data by race to JBHE, the black graduation rate was a perfect 100 percent. The seven high-ranked medical schools with a black graduation rate of 100 percent are the Mayo Medical School, Vanderbilt University, the Uni-versity of Chicago, the University of Pittsburgh, the University of Virginia, the Mount Sinai School of Medicine, and the University of Alabama at Birmingham.”</p>

<p>find me the average GPAs then if you’re actually trying to make a point that affirmative action recruits eventually are equally skilled in their professional fields. graduation rate doesn’t say a thing. you can graduate medical school with an A average. you can also graduate with a D-.</p>

<p>AA is just so backwards to me. Why not reward people based on merit?</p>

<p>As much as I truly agree with the question of why it’s useful to basically work against merit (as pure AA clearly does), here’s the argument:</p>

<p>If you have a college in which you take applicants purely with regard to their statistics, you lose a ton of diversity in your student body, and as a result a lot of strength in the class. For example, at Caltech, there is a 3:1 guy-girl ratio, a result of Caltech’s refusal to use any significant diversifying admissions action (aside from giving scholarships to diversify). Also, the student body is primarily asian and white.</p>

<p>Does this make the school stronger? I very much doubt it. (This coming from a white male who will probably attend Caltech)</p>

<p>Another argument for affirmative action is that for any given underprivileged minority applicant, their stats may not reflect their strength as a student so much as their socioeconomic status. If I’m a black student, living in a poor neighborhood, dealing with gang violence, tons of crime, low family income, a bad school college counseling system, and so on, I’m likely to appear weaker than a better prepared, more fortunate student. However, I may have just as much innate potential, which requires a more supportive environment to show.</p>

<p>Personally though, I think minority-oriented affirmative action or positive action policies of any kind are misguided. Firstly, the policies leave out tons of poor white and asian children who have terrible living situations, but lose out on the minority card. Secondly, I think that many applicants get boosts that shouldn’t, simply because they are minorities. For example, if a minority kid whose are both lawyers, making >100k/year each, and goes to Exeter (or wherever) applies, he in no way needd help due to his (or her) minority status. On the other hand, I think the poor white kid whose mom is a stripper and lives in a ****ty neighborhood is the kid who should be the specific target of admissions boosts and affirmative action like that.</p>

<p>I really think any kind of affirmative action or policies to improve diversity should focus solely on socioeconomic status. If someone’s minority status is really a part of their identity, it should come thorugh from their essays or other application material (activities, etc). I see no reason universities should be looking at minority applicants who - other than the colour of their skin - are almost identical to overrepresented applicants and give them any kind of boost.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, saying “we’re going to ignore race now and focus on income” isn’t really good politics, in my opinion.</p>

<p>Socioeconomic affirmative action would be far less controversial.</p>

<p>Fact of the matter is, race is one of the most sensitive issues in our nation. Most of the students here were raised in school environments that espoused equality and affirmed the principle that we should judge on character, not skin color.</p>

<p>Flash forward a decade later to high school senior age and guess what becomes a factor? That’s right - race!</p>

<p>The irony. We were all taught to see each others as brothers and sisters instead of Asian brothers or Black sisters as kids, but as young adults, the adjectives suddenly start to matter.</p>

<p>Apparently, I have a different viewpoint on life than my White friends because I’m Asian. It doesn’t matter that I’m a dual citizen, that I’ve been bilingual since I was two, … I have yellow skin, therefore I see life differently than a person with white skin.</p>

<p>NOT.</p>

<p>Socioecononomic affirmative action is actually more inclusive. Poverty does not discriminate. It can strike anyone of any race. Of course, until the redemptive liberals retire, it is politically infeasible to promote such a concept as it would mean the inclusion of poor Whites and Asians at the expense of rich Blacks.</p>

<p>I still haven’t finished the article, but after reading it more carefully, one thing caught my eye.</p>

<p>The authors deny that affirmative action causes Black and Hispanic students to be mismatched, but they acknowledge that it contributes to racial tensions. That is, it fosters the idea that “he only got in because he’s [insert race here].” They concluded that this, the stereotype threat, is one of the causes of Black underachievement. (Isn’t the obvious solution just to remove racial preferences? Guess it isn’t obvious to everyone.)</p>

<p>You know, I’m not a huge fan of AA, but I can honestly say I would not go to a college that was not racially diverse…diversity was something really important for me during my college search.</p>