Atlantic essay about Ivy League/income

I disagree with this.

I volunteer at an organization that provides college counseling to low-income high school students. They occasionally bring in former students who have graduated from college to talk about their career plans. One day they brought in students who now have consulting jobs. The point was to show these low-income students about the career paths available to them that may never of heard about before.

While a consulting job is not a guarantee for the 1%, the pathway to that is relatively open for those that choose to pursue it.

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Same. I was fortunate to get a good scholarship for my law school, but I do think for certain possible career paths, paying extra for certain law schools might be worth the investment. But if you don’t have too much debt overall, you can then choose what to do with such a start, not feel chained to only the most lucrative legal jobs.

And so you can help maintain flexibility by not paying too much for undergrad . . . .

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I wouldn’t expect any of this to apply to everyone.

However, I do wonder if it’s something similar to what is described in the book “Privileged Poor”. It found that FGLI kids who were coming to Ivies from boarding schools, for example, knew that they could go for consultations, had had experiences (travel, visiting friends on Nantucket) that allowed them to move more easily/comfortably socially, and that they thrived at a significantly higher rate than their counterparts who were not so "privileged " because they knew how the game was played and believed they were contenders.

If the benefit to an Ivy education is learning how high-achievers set themselves up for success – how they find and research opportunities, how they use networks, how they explore workarounds to challenges, I can imagine that it is much the same. They believe they are contenders. They confidently throw their hats in the ring, and they know the rules and the strategies to win.

There will be plenty of kids who do this well without being schooled by their classmates, but there may be a good number who also “learn the ropes” for pursuing what they want.

Personally, I still tend to believe that most of this is selection bias (despite the asserion that it is not). If you assemble a class of kids of high ability, ambition, and add in that many have connections and resources, you’d expect a disproportionate level of success.

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I don’t think I follow what you disagree with.

I got the impression that you thought the pathways to the 1% were only open to those with insider knowledge or connections.

Just to comment that these are not “Middle Class Lives”. These are lives of comfortable affluence in the top 20% or top 10%. A family of four with an income of $250,000 is not “Middle Class”, even if they are below average in the Very Wealthy suburb in which they live.

A college professor in MA has a median income of around $150,000. However, an associate professor (that would be the most common rank of somebody of your age) who did their undergrad at an Ivy will likely do their PhD at a similarly highly prestigious university, and will end up teaching at a university which has much higher pay levels. In MA that is mostly one of the many wealthy private universities or the UMass system, and their income is closer to $200,000 or higher. If the person is a full professor, and/or has an administrative position, their income would be $250,000 and higher, and they are usually families with two working parents.

Of course, most professors do not make that much, but most professors did not attend an Ivy for their undergrad and do not live in the Urban areas of MA. Most Professors live upper middle class lives, with household incomes of around $150,000.

Which ties in nicely to the article. Attending an Ivy League college for their undergraduates can have a huge positive impact on a person who is going into academia. However, that depends on the field, since, in academia, different fields have different universities which are considered prestigious. So in Engineering, attending GTech, Berkeley, UNC, or Michigan provides a much larger number of opportunities than attending UPenn or Columbia, not to mention Brown or Dartmouth.

Of course, if somebody wants to be a faculty member at a “T-50” college in History, an undergraduate degree form an “Ivy+” or a small number of publics, like Berkeley, makes this much much easier. Graduates of these universities also hold the majority of the most influential positions in the professional societies in History (as well as many other social sciences and humanities).

To go back to the reason why grads of Ivies succeed, I’m surprised nobody has mentioned the tendency of Ivy grads to prefer hiring other Ivy grads. It is, of course, not exclusive to Ivy grads by any means. However, since the Ivies were the colleges that were the prerogative of the leadership class, that meant that existing leaders selected Ivy graduates as their proteges and as the next generation of leaders. That is why this tendency has a much larger impact when it is practiced by Ivy+ graduates.

That preference is beyond the preference for people with similar background. A person who sees their own Ivy degree as proof that they are worthy of their leadership position is going to use an Ivy degree to prove the worthiness of people when they select as potential leaders. When the idea that an Ivy degree indicates superiority is shared by a wide swath of the population, it makes this type of thinking on the part of gatekeepers who are Ivy graduates (or not) much more likely.

The articles by this authors and his collaborators look at the long history of the pipeline of “Elite College => Ivy League Law School => Clerking for Supreme Court Justice => being a Supreme Court Justice” and do not address the high possibility that this flow is not the result of any inherent superiority of the graduates of Ivies themselves, or even any superiority on their accomplishments or even education. How much of this is because the majority of people who accept applicants to Ivy Law Schools, the people who determine who will clerk for Supreme Court Justices, etc, are Ivy+ graduates themselves, and prefer the graduates of Ivy+ colleges?

There is also a long history of circular thinking: Ivy graduates are better so therefore we should place them in positions of influence and power. How do we know that Ivy+ graduates are better? Because they hold so many positions of influence and power.

PS. We can see the attitude of “an Ivy Degree indicates superior intellect, leadership talent, etc” on CC all the time. That is the entire basis of the “Ivy or Bust” mentality that we see in high school students and worse, their parents.

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Oh. No, that was not what I meant at all. But I may have poorly made my point. I was trying to highlight Americans’ outsized focus on the extreme high end of results and resonating with those too much in various contexts rather than resonating with the norms for most successful people in whatever context.

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Well, it’s a good thing that I wrote “upper middle class”, right? :wink:

But I agree with the rest of your post.

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In the academic fields I know about, your first tenure-track position is in part a function of where you do your PhD, but not your undergrad. After that, extraordinary advancement is largely about things like publications, grants, conferences, and other markers of research success, which you can leverage into “better” offers from other institutions.

There are statistical correlations between very selective undergrads and top PhD programs, but clearly a lot of that is just based on correlated attributes (like being really good at school) and self-selection (people with academic aspirations choosing undergrads that are known to place a lot of PhDs). And it isn’t limited to the Ivy Plus, various LACs, specialized STEM schools, and so on place disproportionately in PhD programs.

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I just wanted to make one point here. The top 1% average income was $570K in 2025, that’s a long long way from being a billionaire. Most people who make around that average will never come close to being a billionaire.

IMO many do see a top 1% salary as achievable. It’s why so many students here want IB, for example…a VP (5-6 years experience out of undergrad) at many IB firms will be in this total comp range.

I’ve said this before on CC, but a person who can sell consulting services will never not have a lucrative job. (Assuming they choose that life.) I spent 25 years in strategy consulting and the competition for sellers is fierce, and has put significant upward pressure on comp packages.

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I don’t disagree with any of what you said. Clearly my big picture point I was trying to make was messily conveyed as I have two responses that clearly did not get what I was trying to convey. That is on me.

Yes 1% and billionaire are nowhere close to equivalent categories as you say. Billionaires are an infinitesimal number of people nationally and globally.

And yes, 1% is potentially achievable for those seeking Ivy League, but it is not really achievable for most Americans which was the intended focus of my middle class comparator reference. I was meaning to focus on how Americans writ large (not the population we discuss here on CC) perceive the 1%.

In the end, I clearly did not articulate what I was trying to say well. And it seems I don’t disagree with any of the responses to my poorly worded post.

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I note one of the repeat conclusions in happiness research is some form of diminishing marginal utility of consumption. Basically, past a certain point of financial security and reliable ability to provide things like a comfortable home, quality medical care, and quality education for yourself and your family, a lot more in “luxury” spending is unlikely to contribute much to your personal happiness.

I think in a nutshell this is why many Ivy Plus grads and such are content with, say, top 2-5% outcomes, as opposed to top 1%. What in practice will moving into the top 1% actually get them and their family? What will it cost them to get that result? Is that tradeoff actually worth it?

Of course some people do what they love to do with their time, and end up in the top 1% or higher anyway. But for many, the extra hours, travel, stress, or so on necessary in their field to get to such a result is a deal breaker.

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This is me in a nutshell. I could make way more money if I choose to, but my life would be worse in my opinion. I make more now than I did in my last job. If I could, I’d go back to my last job and the work that served the public (but it was unceremoniously eliminated from existence as was my entire office). I do not believe more money will make me happier. I believe it would make me less happy with my life given what I’d have to do to get it.

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Which to me raises a very interesting question. Are people who attend highly selective colleges sometimes finding it easier to end up with lives they won’t score as top 1% sort of outcomes objectively, but subjectively, for them, strike a relatively good balance of different life goals? Like they may not be paid more, but they were able to choose a specific field, and/or location, or so on that got them that financial benefit with more personal fulfillment and less personal sacrifice than might otherwise have been possible. That sort of thing.

This possibility is sometimes framed as an optionality benefit, and I think that may well get closest to the most commonly realized benefit of attending one of these colleges.

But then I really think it is possible to ruin that optionality benefit by paying too much for college. And I think sometimes studies have not fully accounted for how college costs really were going up rapidly through 2017 or so. The increases since then seem to have at least temporarily slowed down, even gone down a bit in inflation adjusted terms for some. But those prior big increases created a different financial landscape for many kids going to college today, even compared to kids in the early 2000s, let alone as far back as when I went to college.

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Regarding MWolf’s post:

Plenty of Ivy League Phd’s working at very modest colleges. The academy is overcrowded and there aren’t enough seats for any degree to guarantee a tenured position even at lower levels.

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I share this view re: my D22’s experience. She has felt pressure due to the pace and workload of her program but not from her friends and classmates, who are generally quite collaborative and supportive. And although she initially felt she needed join certain clubs and secure a “major” leadership role to get a “good” job, I advised her to spend time on what’s enjoyable to her and she would be fine. And so she did and, even though nothing really stands out on her resume (relative to her cohort), things have generally panned out.

Rather than honing one’s competitive instincts, I think elite institutions can helpfully raise the aspirations of students, which might be particularly helpful to FGLIs because I sense they might be more likely to underestimate their own potential. I was surprised the article missed this.

Totally agree with this! In fact, I have told my D22 that I would be less than proud if she were to enter certain high-paying but (in my view) predatory occupations and also made the point that that would amount to wasted parenting efforts. She feels more angst about financial security than I did at her age but, for her first job, she’s prioritizing experience over pay. But let’s see what happens over time…

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The Atlantic article posted, which is largely based on the Chetty / Opportunity Insights research from 2023, clearly shows that attending an Ivy Plus school leads to significantly higher probabilities of “top end” outcomes compared to attending a flagship public. Many of the comments up until now on this thread falls into one of several categories:

(1) “well, this is correlation rather than causation”. No, the Harvard-Brown researchers explicitly took that into account in their study. You really don’t think world-class economics researchers would deal with this possibility before publishing their work?

(2) “well, me and most of my Ivy Plus classmates didn’t want to reach the Top 1% anyway”. Okay, but this is hardly a counterpoint, since I’m not sure how this is relevant to the innumerable high-ambition high school kids who DO want to reach for high-ambition life outcomes. Said another way, how would you know at the age of 18 that you’re not a high ambition kid, so why would you prematurely diminish the odds for yourself in reaching these high ambition outcomes?

(3) “I still enjoy the fruits of my early career success, whether a MBB job or a Federal clerkship or a top graduate program, et cetera, but it had nothing to do with my undergrad”. So are you discounting the chain reaction (i.e., compounding) effect? That is, given that an Ivy Plus undergrad improved your odds of getting into a top JD or PhD program (which in fact was one of the benefits the Opportunity Insights researchers explicitly identified), which then led to a great early job or Federal clerkship, isn’t it reasonable to assume that your Ivy Plus degree is still paying off years later? Have you considered that your Ivy Plus credentials is what got you an invitation to interview for many of these “first-but-invaluable-step-on-the-ladder” opportunities?

The only counterargument I found compelling was the “old school effect”: that is, Ivy Plus graduates prefer to hire other Ivy Plus graduates. But if your family had the money and you did not need to take out outsized student loans (and you got admitted), then why wouldn’t you prefer to attend? At the age of 18, are you so discriminating that you would actually find something deficient about Duke or Yale or Stanford or Brown that another non-Ivy Plus could better fulfill?

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Speaking for myself, and I believe others who made points related to your bolded #2 and #3, I did not make those points in an effort to counter the study’s findings at all. It was part of a more robust conversation on this thread that started with the studies but were not trying to “counter” the claims of the study. In fact, on the federal clerkship point I explicitly said my ability to get it was influenced by my attending a top ranked law school. And the original poster on federal clerkships agreed that was true for them as well. I made no commentary on my undergrad’s role. But had you asked, I would have told you that I believe that had an impact on my law school admission, but I was never asked and assumptions to the contrary are misguided.

I did not see the discussion in this thread as wholly comprised of people trying to rebut the study. Rather we were discussing the many topics that arise from collective reading of such an article. A key theme was that average Ivy Leaguer’s outcomes may not be that much different than others (as opposed to those aiming to be one percenters), and we shared some reasons why that may be so, if true.

Lastly, I take issue with your definition of “high ambition” equaling highest level of income. I 100% was high ambition from high school on. I just don’t measure success 100% by how much money I make and that is true of many other high ambition people. So, your premise on that aspect is off.

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Regarding wanting to reach top 1% income or reduced odds of reaching top 1% income, the study does not analyze reasons, only that there was a significant difference in portion reaching top 1% income. This leads to a wide variety of speculation. I don’t think it’s as simple as whether you want / don’t want to reach top 1% and whether you want/don’t want to face diminished odds of top 1%.

For example, a comparison of how plans for immediately after graduation changed from Harvard freshmen survey to Harvard senior survey is below. While attending Harvard, many students change their original freshman plans and instead enter finance, CS tech, or consulting immediately after graduating; which all have potential for top 1% income. I suspect that this switching plans to favor fields associated with higher earnings effect is stronger at Harvard than at typical public flagships, which is one contributing factor to why attending Harvard may increase odds of top 1% for a particular student, compared to attending a different selective college. Whether this type of changing plans effect is desirable is not a simple answer, as there are other factors to consider besides just odds of reaching top 1% income.

More Likely to Pursue
Working in finance: 9% → 15%
Working in CS tech: 6% → 13%
Working in consulting: 4% → 10%

Less Likely to Pursue
Grad/Professional school: 28% → 17%
Academia: 12% → 6%

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In response to some of the comments above, I am less convinced that skills are honed at these schools by competing with classmates, but more by seeing how other ambitious students go about attaining their goals while simultaneously wanting to keep up with peers.

It’s not unlike being a top athlete playing on an excellent team. Your teammates are inspiration, motivation, and models all in one. At some level, you may be competing for playing time, but you are teammates before you are rivals.

The Excellent Sheep book talked about how students shape each other’s goals (in an unimaginative, we all want jobs at I-banks and MBB ways). It’s more peer pressure. So in this sense, it’s not that hard to see how swimming in this sea impacts these students.

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