Average arts school

College Majors Visual Arts and Film Majors
21

@spoonyj - I am in deep sympathy. In keeping with @stones3 's “effort to shed light and truth,” I repeat the point very clearly expressed by @MazeArtCrew above. Specifically, that all of the rankings to which you consistently point are for GRADUATE programs. US News & World Report does not post UNDERGRADUATE art school rankings. There are a wide range of more informal, less established lists of undergraduate art schools, but these are all over the place. One of the challenges in objectively assessing VCU’s art school, is separating it’s statistics from VCU as a whole. VCU is a relatively low-rated university (south of #150 in your go-to US News & World Report rankings), with an in-state population of close to 90% (makes me think of your other regular recommendation, TCNJ), and a graduation rate hovering below 50%.

For us, in helping our daughter choose an art school there were five main criteria: (1) Cost; (2) Location; (3) Majors; (4) Career placement, and (5) Social life. I would venture to guess that 99% of the questions posed about art school that I have read on this site fall into one of these categories. Note that ranking was NOT a criteria for us. As it happens, if a school meets most of our criteria, it is probably highly “rated” in any case.

VCU Arts was definitely on our list, having nothing to do with rankings, but because of many of the assets the school has and which you so eloquently and often cite. There were two main reasons we crossed VCU off our list – Career Placement and Social life. With regard to the former, VCU Arts has an abysmal rate of placement, particularly when compared to other top art schools. RISD touts 96% placement upon graduation and 100% within 6 months thereafter. Pratt is also above 90% placement. We were advised of similar high placement percentages at other dedicate arts schools we visited and examined. At VCU, however, the school reported 45-50% placement after graduation.

Socially, I express the same reservations about VCU that I expressed about TCNJ on another thread in which you and I exchanged comments. The school is nearly 90% in-state students. It also has a high rate of commuters. Because of its size, both as a campus and its student body, it offsets the commuter feel more than a much smaller school such as TCNJ, but there is still a sense of ebb and flow in the student population, particularly on weekends. Our concern in this area comes from viewing undergraduate school, even a dedicated art school, as more than an exercise in academia. A large portion of the college experience is social including making friends, engaging different people and ideas, personal independence and growth, and generally engaging a world much broader than the one from which one originates. In our estimation, a school where 9 out of 10 people come from the same State limits this.

On a micro level, specifically related to this site, while I by no means begrudge your personal choice of schools for your children, please know that you do not have to justify that choice, in every post of yours that I have ever read, by citing statistics, rankings and 100% positive experience. Choosing any school is a very personal choice. It involves so many factors that may be unique in so many ways to each family. Money, geography, student body, career opportunities, social life and many other criteria are personal. It is never one-size fits all and #1 is not for everyone. When someone asks about academic statistics to get into RISD (another thread in which you jarringly interjected a plug for VCU), they are not asking about VCU or any other school. When someone asks about “average art schools” they are also presumably not asking about VCU. It is one thing to “educate” quite another to force feed.

22

I agree with much of what BrooklynRye says above, especially: “For us, in helping our daughter choose an art school there were five main criteria: (1) Cost; (2) Location; (3) Majors; (4) Career placement, and (5) Social life.” If I had to order them in terms of priority for us/our daughter, it would be:

  1. Majors (she didn’t look at colleges which didn’t have majors which interested her)
  2. Tied between Cost and Career Placement; (equally important)
  3. School Services (we considered those separate from social life - health center, housing, food - not all art schools have these)
  4. Social Life
  5. Location

My daughter really liked LCAD, and seriously considered it, however the extra costs associated with travel, the lack of services, very expensive housing after freshman year, and no food plan (there is a food truck at lunch which comes around) makes it fine for commuters, but not so great for her as an out of state student who doesn’t have unlimited cash - while it looks less expensive, travel, housing, health insurance would add up a lot. Their majors are very interesting, and career placement is good. If she had received more aid we would have considered it more strongly.

Also, what is the good of a ranking of an art school? Any student with grit/determination who works like crazy can come out of art school with a great portfolio, and it is the portfolio which matters when being hired or getting into grad school.

The studios/resources need to be seen - they are all so different. There are art schools with the old studios, resplendent with years of dribbled paint across the wood floors, with light filtered in by northern facing skylights, and there are art schools with pristine walls, meant to be used in serious critiques. Some have dedicated Mac Labs with Cintique tablets - others are strictly BYOC (bring your own computer). It is all the philosophy of the Art School. Your son needs to find a school where the philosophy as well as the “must haves” mesh with his needs/his philosophy. My daughter was seriously considering a New Media program at DePaul in Chicago - they gave her a good financial aid package, and we went to the Accepted Students’ Day. The studios were great, being in Chicago a big plus, the resources really good, but she ultimately felt that it wasn’t a good fit. On the other hand, she appreciated the resources that RIT offers, the large student body (she has friends from Texas/Brazil/etc.) the strong support of technology, and the connections they offer in the field. She also felt that the student portfolios on the RIT site were very strong, which said a lot about the education that the students there were getting. It is really about finding a good fit.

23

@ormdad I can speak a little bit to Art Center. I know folks who go there and have spent quite a bit of time on campus. My son took extension classes there while in high school, and I used to go to the library to get get work done while he drew and painted. It’s an amazing place–the quality of student work is absolutely first-rate–but it’s definitely not a typical college. The students skew older, as you’ve probably heard, and the vibe is definitely subdued and business-like. My son was in awe of the place at first (with good reason), but he eventually decided it wasn’t for him. He was right; he was just too young. He was never interested in the typical college experience, but Art Center definitely demands a level of maturity not many 18-year-olds possess. That said, I know a student there who enrolled straight out of high school and loves it, but she was immensely talented and incredibly mature, and she was absolutely certain she wanted to work in the entertainment industry and knew that Art Center students are coveted by the studios in LA. The school is in a posh part of Pasadena–students seem to have no trouble finding safe housing in the area–but it’s a commuter campus; as wonderful as it is, it’s a very particular kind of place and definitely not for students who aren’t ready to live on their own or think they might want a more typical college experience.

@BrooklynRye Thanks for your wise and eloquent post. I completely understand the impulse in @stones3 to justify their child’s choice of schools. My son got into the most selective art schools in the nation but ultimately chose a less selective one for very valid reasons. When people ask me where he goes to school and my response is met with blank faces, there’s a part of me that wants to blurt out, “Oh, its a great school. It really is. And, anyway, he also got into that-other-school-that-people-who-don’t-know-art-schools-have-still-heard-of, so, yeah, he’s good.” But then I remind myself that he’s happy and thriving–and that he had the wisdom to pick a school that works well for him (and still has a solid placement rate:)) It takes some strength to keep my mouth shut, but I like to think that the part of me that doesn’t say anything is the part of me that encouraged my son to do what worked for him, not what works at dinner parties.

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@spoonyj - Your son is exceedingly fortunate to have you as a parent. To be able to rise above the noise, the peer pressure and the need to compete for the ultimate bumper sticker is indeed laudable. I too identify with @stones3. At its best, however, this site affords parents and students an opportunity to learn and to benefit from the experiences of others. Of course we each interject a bit of our subjectivity as well as a bit of a plug for our choices, but I think an all-out, 24/7 assault is a bit much and dilutes the value of the poster’s opinions. My D1 made one of those ‘controversial’ choices as well, turning down an Ivy League school to attend an OOS public school; a very good one, but not an Ivy. Watching her thrive at the school of her choice makes my heart swell every day. She is an even more independent person than her parents!

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@ormdad @spoonyj nailed it about ArtCenter.
Very down-to-business campus and people take it seriously there. Social life is an afterthought. Extracurriculars are an afterthought as well. People do enroll straight out of high school (it’s not rare). I applied and got in and even visited, but I ultimately crossed it off my list because I didn’t like the overall environment, the lack of activities/housing. I’m fine with a strenuous academic environment, but I need some downtime as well, and I couldn’t find that at ArtCenter.

Amazing programs though, so I still mentioned it because everyone’s different.

I applied/got admitted/visited LCAD and CalArts too. Concerning LCAD, lovely programs and lovely staff, but it was a teeny, suffocating campus. The work, while good, was not groundbreaking. Also the demographic seemed a bit malibu beach barbie to me, much more so than the average art school. Not a big deal, I just wasn’t sure if I would get along with the people there.

@AskExperts I’d still consider/apply to the more selective schools if I were you. CalArts is not impossible to get into. CMU is extremely hard but you never know! CalArts is lovely. Nice cafeteria, good energy on campus, and its program isn’t bad. A lot of other types of art/performing arts programs as well which makes the whole thing all the more interesting!

The program does seem a bit outdated though, because its mostly print based. And as most people know, print is dying. However, I’m sure their graduates do well because they are genuinely trained to be amazing visual thinkers and designers.

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not sure why you seem to be taking this somehow too personally. I agree , that VCUARTS tremendous recognition
as the #1 public arts school in the country(tied with UCLA) and its overall and recent uprgrade to #2 speaks obviously very well for the school, its program , its graduate. However, I don’t think it takes away from schools like RISD or Pratt ,Mica etc which are also fine institutions. Why you throw in comments about another unrelated institution that keeps climbing in the charts (namely TCNJ) just illustrates the point. These are two extremely fine institutions, that offer true value and are highly recognized. As for rankings, it is true there are many lists, but as you know USNEWS is in fact one of the most respected. Further its odd to me how when a ranking can be used to support ones favored institution well that’s ok, but if it supports another well that’s not quite as ok. LOL.

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just to clarify. The USNEWS rankings is for graduate fine arts programs is well renowned and respected . They do not rank undergraduate fine arts programs but it has been this list that over the years has been sited. Note in most cases the same prof teach undergraduate as well so it can reasonable be used as a proxy for undergraduate. As with any school, it should be visited during session and a student/parents should spend time with actual faculty and actual students . Direct questions to those in attendance and service plus any alumni . Good luck to all.

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Looking back, @stones3, I don’t see where anyone seems to have taken this personally. Most of the comments to which I believe you are referring address the issue of some semblance of objectivity in providing advice and information on this thread. Your bias towards VCU (and, yes, towards TCNJ) taints the information you provide because it is based on your personal preferences and on unsubstantiated information. Even now you can’t help yourself, touting rating after rating. I am curious as to where you see manipulation of ranking statistics by others on this thread to support their position. While it is ‘generous’ of you to give schools such as RISD, Pratt and MICA their due, VCU is simply not (yet) in a league with these schools or for that matter with many others in the Midwest and West Coast. All manner of ratings aside, you are talking about a host of elite art and design schools with international reputations. These are schools that have been doing this and at the top of the heap for generations. There are up and comers, such as Tyler at Temple and, yes, VCU, but they are frankly not at that elite level yet. Extrapolating from graduate rankings to make assumptions about undergraduate quality on the basis that some undergraduate courses are sometimes taught by graduate professors is ridiculously inaccurate and merely substantiates the contortions you will go through to defend your personal bias. Personally, we did the very due diligence you recommend and found VCU to be severely lacking. Is this impression invalidated by VCUs ranking?

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ok so obviously you see or are implying some kind of “manipulation” (your word) and I respectfully disagree, as I don’t see any such manipulation. And for the actual record VCUARTS has been mentioned in the top 10 of US arts schools for a number of years now, this is not a new up and comer as you suggest , its been going on for quite a while. Things like the Da Vinci center (first of its kind in the US) and the famous Brandcenter are truly extraordinary. So again , with all due respect they absolutely deserve to be in the exact same conversation as other mentioned schools maybe even more so today. We also did extensive due diligence and solicited the aid of several art prof from another well known program as well as a very well known Ad exec . They painted quite a different picture than you intimate . At least that was our experience, obviously yours was different.

I would appreciate if you would site where you got the job placement stats you quoted as I am quite curious about that.

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@stones3 Here’s the thing: You just need to be more aware of how your posts come off to others. Your constant plugging of VCU often involves citing rankings with no context and even hijacking threads in which your boosterism feels out of place. This creates the impression that your posts are more about satisfying your own agenda and gratifying your own feelings than about using your experience to help others sort through the issues they’re earnestly asking about.

31

Again, for the record VCUARTS had 6 majors ranked as top 10 in the nation. We find that impressive and they are in good company with the other highly ranked schools. Other schools get posted at nausea or almost robotically, I simply
know VCUARTS should be considered in the same conversation and I can site reasons for that , one of which is its ranking. I do appreciate your post @spoonyj and wish you well.

32

@spoonyj - At the risk of sounding shrill or chilling any attempt at educational interaction on threads such as this, I started to respond to @stones3 's posts above. You beat me too it. Memo to self: Learn to make my point as succinctly, directly and clearly as Spoonnyj. Feel as if you are speaking to an automated recording?

33

First of all, I wholeheartedly thank every single one of you for the valuable comments. To be honest with you, it is not easy for a widowed parent to take time off to visit every single campus that we plan to apply. I am hoping by looking at ranking can help me narrow the searches. Your insight experience on the art schools is extremely important to me. Thank you again.

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you are welcome and I wish you well.
Use the information here where applicable but also please do your own research and don’t rely on the obvious personal justifications. Look at substantiated third party list as well as personal accounts. Most importantly, your
child will know where they feel able to produce their best effort. I have not put down any other program, nor thrown
stones at any other institutions unlike others here. It’s just not necessary and its wholly inappropriate. Facts are powerful on their own. BTW anyone want to substantiate those placement %'s posted earlier would be helpful. THX

35

“Just when I thought I was out…they keep pulling me back in” (Godfather III).

I refrained from responding to your last post @stones3 where you continue to hype programs and rankings at VCU that relate to graduate programs.As numerous posters have noted, there is no generally accepted ranking of undergraduate art schools. This seems to fall on deaf ears as you continue to post this misleading information. You topped even yourself when you suggested that because some of the VCU graduate professors teach at the undergrad, the rankings for the graduate schools simply transfer over.

Sadly, rather than respond positively or, preferably, not at all to @spoonyj 's clear and sensitive post, you just launched another diatribe of inaccurate and subjectively-motivated information and hype. Both the VCU da Vinci Center, as well as the VCU Brandcenter (not quite sure I would characterize it as “famous”) appear to be excellent, proactive institutions. However, once again, you are talking about graduate programs (da Vinci does offer some undergraduate certificates, but not an undergraduate degree). As an aside, when taking information from Wikipedia, read carefully and check their sources. The da Vinci Center itself is not “the first of its kind in the US.” The Masters in Product Innovation offered by the Center is apparently the first such offered in the US.

Despite your holier-than-thou tone, no one is excluding VCU from the conversation. Parsing through your ‘spin’ I am merely adding some perspective on the national and global reputations of some of these schools. I have seen many on-line lists presuming to rank the world’s top art schools. While again taking such lists with a grain of salt, the one thing they all have in common is that those schools included from the United States always come from a few select schools including RISD, Pratt, MICA, SAIC, Parsons and several others. VCU does not appear on any such list I have ever seen.

The importance of these schools national and international recognition is that it leads to greater potential for career advancement upon graduation. Since college is such a large financial investment, career placement was at the top of our list of questions and one we asked at every school we visited (unless, as often happened, another visitor beat us to it). We carried a list of our primary criteria questions with us to every school and took notes. The figures I cited were those given to us during our information session at VCU and at others I quoted above. You can find the figures for Pratt (91% within 6 months), RISD (96% within 1 year), and MICA (84%) on their respective websites. However, just for kicks, let’s use your logic of extrapolation. The “truly extraordinary” and “famous” Brandcenter is the jewel in the crown of the VCU Arts program. Accordingly, VCU Arts can at best hope to just match the Brandcenter’s post-graduation job placement rate. What do you think that number is? 25-45% as posted by the Brandcenter itself.

I am happy for you that you are happy with your choice. It sounds as if you did thorough due diligence including seeking opinions from art professionals and advertising executives. Your experience leads you to share in their opinions. Mine does not. I am quite certain I can find my own plethora of art-related professionals and executives who will rattle off the top art schools without ever getting to VCU. Kind of like dueling expert witnesses at a trial. It is ultimately not about rank. It is about “fit” and where each of our children can thrive and grow and be happy. My daughter struggled to make that decision because of how many great art schools we are fortunately to have in this country and, yes, her list included VCU. Our decision to cross VCU off our list, along with just about every other top art school on the East Coast, was personal to our daughter, not a degradation of the schools she turned down.

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so kiddies, once again unsubstantiated statistics and self justifying rhetoric . As I have stated MANY times now, parents please please do your own research and do not blindly follow the mantra of the most expensive opportunities.
Fact, VCUarts (Grade program) is #2 ranked in the entire United States of America. It’s been the #1 ranked public since 2003 as well. Speak to people in the industry (working professionals) , the Brandcenter is renowned. The Da Vinci center was the first of its kind and offers programs for undergrads much to the above posters chagrin. These are substantiated facts but please do your own research and let your children express where they feel they can do their best work. This takes nothing away from any other institution nor any personal choices made . But let’s try to stick to
facts and celebrate that a public institution has proven it is every bit as good as these more expensive privates. Kudos certainly go to VCUarts for its #2 ranking with out question. Also lets recall for many years schools like RISD took the top spots and it was certainly lauded, so I am all the more amused when somehow its suggested that now its inappropriate to post the nationally recognized ranking and extrapolating from it for undergrad, when in fact its always been done on behalf of the previous achievers. I applaud your decision . Everyone should do what is perceived to be right for themselves , but I certainly couldn’t find anyone to comment negatively as you suggest about VCUARTS and in all I have said and experienced it is quite the opposite and that is from working professionals, and academics… even though I am holier-than-thou.LOL (or did I misinterpret that too?) LOL.

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Here is the entire quote on job placement from the Brandcenter at VCUARTS. -“The Brandcenter holds its two-day Recruiter Session three weeks before graduation so that graduating students have the chance to meet and get their work in front of over 250 agency and client-side recruiters. So it’s not surprising that by graduation, 25-45% have already secured jobs. That number is up to 95% eight months after graduation.” Now that says right there 95% !!! that’s compared to RISD at 95% one year out, and MICA 84% and Pratt 91% 6 months out (stats as provided by the above poster). What’s the opposite of abysmal? facts.

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Blah, blah, blah…Do you even read what you write, @stones3? For the umpteenth time, no one is asking about graduate programs. The statistics you cite are irrelevant to this thread. VCU’s ranking among public schools is, first, specific to public schools and, second, for the entire university, not for the undergraduate arts program.

To what specific “unsubstantiated” statistics and self-justifying rhetoric do you refer? I would venture that using nameless, faceless “people in the industry” (even BIG ad-execs) is about as unsubstantiated as one can get. Exactly what “kind” is it that the da Vinci Center was first of? Read my post again. The da Vinci center offers certificate programs for undergraduates, not degree programs. Again, as with your references to graduate school rankings, you are mixing apples with oranges. This is a thread about undergraduate art schools, not graduate programs in art and not certification programs.

Much as you might like to make this some kind of class war between public and private schools, this is just ludicrous.My daughter is at UVA, one of the top 3 public universities in the country. I can live with that distinction. UVA does not have to be higher ranked or even in competition with Harvard.

Whatever RISD’s or any other elite art school’s past history, ranking or otherwise, is not really relevant to me. I can’t speak to any tradition of lauding such schools which apparently now entitles VCU to its due. This is equally silly.

Subtlety just seems to escape you. I am quite certain that you of all people cannot find a single soul to comment negatively on VCU. Heaven forbid! My point was that as surely as you find people in support, there are always those out there who are not.

You equally miss my point about the Brandcenter. My point was to show the ridiculousness of your equating the ranking of graduate programs at a given school with the school’s undergraduate school. Talk about unsubstantiated claims! The fact remains that the Brandcenter is, yet again, a graduate program, having nothing to do with the quality of the undergraduate art program.

This said, I am surprised in your due diligence and subsequent canonization of VCU Arts that you did not inquire about the rate of placement from the undergraduate school. I inquired at the school and dutifully conveyed what I was told. Isn’t this the kind of information people convey on this thread? Show me the contrary from a reliable source.

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“unsubstantiated” like your claims about job placement. Didn’t you even see that you totally just misrepresented the facts. I am flat out done with this thread as its obvious you are one of those " have to get the last word" characters. So parents , feel free to read through the post or better still do your own research and stick to facts not hearsay,innuendo and posters that take facts out of context (like the above). I wish all the kids much success and remember the #1 public art school is VCUARTS and it also happens to be ranked #2 overall in the entire nation as per
USNWR http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-fine-arts-schools/fine-arts-rankings

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I am normally a lurker on threads, but I just wanted to make some observations as I have been reading along here.

First of all, stones3, you do seem a little pushy with your constant VCU mentions, in this and other threads. If people do their research, they will see VCU listed as a top art school. If they are interested, they will ask. VCU is a fine school. However, there are many fine art schools. College is a very personal choice, and rankings alone are not the only criteria for selecting where to go.

BrooklynRye, I find some of your comments do seem personal. Your first post here is not to the OP but directly to stones3. You chastise stones3 in multiple posts about how graduate rankings have no bearing on undergrad, yet you do not once mention that to mamelot, who in post #5 clearly states: “There will be a direct correlation between grand and undergrad in terms of reputation of program.” After stones3 last post, which nowhere mentions VCU, you go on a long post that starts out “…they keep pulling me back in.” I saw nothing in stones3 post #33 that would have compelled you to be pulled back into the conversation.

I also find some of your posts contradictory. You rank your criteria for college selection, on a scale of 1-5, as price #1 and job placement #4, yet RISD and MICA seem to be your top choices even though 4 years at these schools cost nearly $200,000 for tuition only. You bring up job placement statics in several of your posts, indicating that as having a very high priority, though that is #4 out of 5 on your list. Also, you state that a school where 9 out of 10 people are from within state would hinder personal growth. I do not know what the art school in state percentage is, but I don’t think it is 90%. I think that is for the school as a whole. You mention you have another child at UVA, a school I am familiar with, which as I recall has 7 out 10 students from within that same state.

I hope others will come on and give more options for some average art schools, not only from the standpoint of admission criteria, but with cost in mind as well.