barnard?

churchmusicmom · May 17, 2006, 9:09pm

(Sigh) I have played no semantic “games”; I have merely honestly tried to clarify things.

I do not take issue with what has been said about anyone who would dileberately misrepresent where they attend school. And I agree that a Barnard student who states they attend Barnard which is an affiliate of Columbia University would be correct in doing so. And that is what all of the Barnard students I know do. My problem, in this thread, has been in the broad representation of Barnard students as ALL deliberately misrepresenting themselves. They do not.

I honestly did not intend to insult anyone or further inflame any sensiblities here. I hold greatest admiration for Columbia (College and University) students, and I am very grateful that my own daughter has found in Barnard the perfect situation in which to reach her full academic potential. And she is proud indeed to say she attends Barnard And, since we are from Georgia, she must often follow that up wtih an explanation but, trust me, she is well aware of the appropriate thing to say. In fact, she is the very first person from her high school to be accepted to Barnard…and she hopes to encourage others to attend there in the future.

Hope you all have a wonderful summer.

calmom · May 17, 2006, 9:54pm

No, I never said that - I said repeatedly that it was appropriate for Barnard grads to say that they graduated from “Barnard College at (or “of”) Columbia University” – or to put one name or the other in parenthesis on a resume. For purposes of a resume, I don’t know why anyone in their right mind wouldn’t list both in that fashion. For a Barnard woman to list Columbia alone would be to invite disaster if someone called the college registrar to verify enrollment; to leave off Columbia U is to potentially sell oneself short if the resume is seen by someone who isn’t familiar with Barnard.

The dispute I have is with the people who argue so adamantly that Barnard is not connected with the University when obviously it is an affiliated institution. I suppose by that mindset it could be argued that people in the District of Columbia shouldn’t claim to live in the United States, since DC is not a “state” and doesn’t have representation in Congress.

If my d. had chosen to go to Gallatin at NYU rather than Barnard, no one would be having conniption fits if she casually said she went to “NYU” even though Gallatin School of Individualized Study has its own faculty and a very different and arguably far less rigid approach to education than CAS, and probably somewhat different standards of admission.

There seems to be a level of insecurity and defensiveness that exists among Columbia College & SEAS students that doesn’t exist at other large universities, many of which have multiple affiliated undergraduate colleges with varying standards of admission and levels of prestige. We’re west coasters here, and have a hard time figuring out what all the fuss is about. You would be amazed at the number of ordinary people here who don’t have a clue where Columbia is either – if my d. wanted to impress people, she could have accepted her spot at Berkeley.

Anyway, I’m tired of debating the point with people who attach so much emotional significance to it. All this does is make me very glad that my daughter will be living on the other side of the street – as I have said before, people who are continually bashing others are not very good ambassadors for their own school. If the goal is to convince everyone that Columbia College/SEAS has a “self-esteem problem” (See <a href=“http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html?uc_full_date=20060503[/url]”>http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html?uc_full_date=20060503</a> ) - then posters like Columbia2002 are doing a good job of it.

Columbia2002 · May 17, 2006, 10:43pm

Do you really believe what you just typed? Imagine:

Q: Where do you attend college?

A: I attend Barnard College which is an affiliate of Columbia University.

Plenty of them do this. I’ve seen it. I’m not sure why you’re convinced that this could never possibly happen.

Horrible analogy. If you were trying to be honest about this, you could have posed the question of whether people in San Juan live in the United States.

Another horrible analogy. Let’s go through this step by step, since we’re having trouble with this “affiliate” thing once again:

CC – college of Columbia University

SEAS – college of Columbia University

GS – college of Columbia University

CAS – college of NYU

Stern Undergrad – college of NYU

Gallatin – college of NYU

Tisch – college of NYU

Barnard – NOT a college of Columbia University

Relevance? More dodging of the real issue.

This is the exact sort of inferiority complex that pervades the Barnard campus. Note that you’re doing your fair share of bashing in portraying Columbia students as having self-esteem problems, being insecure, etc.

student2009 · May 17, 2006, 11:13pm

“No, I never said that - I said repeatedly that it was appropriate for Barnard grads to say that they graduated from “Barnard College at (or “of”) Columbia University” – or to put one name or the other in parenthesis on a resume.”

“Barnard College at (or “of”) Columbia University”… It surprises me that you fail to see why this language is deceptive. Barnard is an “affiliated institution”, not an undergraduate college of Columbia University. Barnard is therefore neither “at” or “of” Columbia University and it hasn’t been since 1983. Read the 1st para: <a href=“http://www.columbia.edu/academic_programs/index.html[/url]”>http://www.columbia.edu/academic_programs/index.html</a>

“The dispute I have is with the people who argue so adamantly that Barnard is not connected with the University when obviously it is an affiliated institution.”

Please, time and time again we have all agreed Barnard is an affiliated institution! You think that means it’s an undergraduate college of Columbia, we think it means it’s an affiliated institution.

“I suppose by that mindset it could be argued that people in the District of Columbia shouldn’t claim to live in the United States, since DC is not a “state” and doesn’t have representation in Congress.”

Another one of your horrible analogies. See my Long Island/NYC analogy for a more appropriate analogy for BC/CU.

“If my d. had chosen to go to Gallatin at NYU rather than Barnard, no one would be having conniption fits if she casually said she went to “NYU” even though Gallatin School of Individualized Study has its own faculty and a very different and arguably far less rigid approach to education than CAS, and probably somewhat different standards of admission.”

This is b/c Gallatin is an undergraduate college of NYU. Barnard is not one of Columbia University. Another flawed analogy.

“There seems to be a level of insecurity and defensiveness that exists among Columbia College & SEAS students that doesn’t exist at other large universities, many of which have multiple affiliated undergraduate colleges with varying standards of admission and levels of prestige. We’re west coasters here, and have a hard time figuring out what all the fuss is about.”

You tell us why you don’t grasp the distinction between an undergraduate college of a university versus an affiliated institution.

“If the goal is to convince everyone that Columbia College/SEAS has a “self-esteem problem” (See <a href=“http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dai...l_date=20060503[/url]”>http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dai...l_date=20060503</a> ) - then posters like Columbia2002 are doing a good job of it.”

And what of the Barnard girls who claim to be Columbia University students/graduates–as Ex0tic mentioned in her original post? No self-esteem issues there, right?

lilsmileycolumbian · May 18, 2006, 8:38pm

Okay, honestly, in the classroom, I never distinguish between CC, SEAS, and Barnard kids in terms of capability. I never look at the Barnard girl in my French class and think something lame such as “oh, you are intellectually inferior to me” or something. That’s just really silly and no one actually believes that. Very few people that I know distinguish Barnard students from Columbia students in a classroom setting…I don’t even know if there really is a Barnard girl in my French class because we don’t make those kinds of distinctions.

Socially, yes, there can be a bit of distinction and teasing on the part of Columbia College kids. Varsity show and epithets as “Barnyard…the Columbia petting zoo” attest to this, but really it’s similar with any all female institution. I’m not saying that it’s right, I came from an all girls school with all the “oh their all lesbians/sluts” stigma attatched to it like any all girls school. Wellesley has it’s “insert word that rhymes with truck” truck that drives them to Harvard. This kind of teasing is inappropriate and undermines an all girls or all women’s education, is petty, and just plain stupid. But it’s not just a COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY issue…it’s just a women’s college issue in general.

I don’t understand what you guys are arguing about. Don’t you ALL agree that:

Barnard College is an affiliated college to Columbia University.
Barnard College is a great school with capable women.
Barnard College students should be proud of where they come from, although it is perfectly okay to write on their resumes “Barnard College affiliated with Columbia University.”

This just shows why the Barnard/Columbia debate keeps going on. Stubborn minds.

calmom · May 19, 2006, 2:28am

Because that is what is printed on the Barnard College letterhead? (See my post #46 for the best facsimile I can muster on this board).

I suppose you’re right though… the “of” or “at” is extraneous. I’ll advise my daughter to stick with the hyphen, just like it is printed on the letterhead. Nothing like copyin verbatim off of the college stationery for accuracy.

collegeisfun · May 19, 2006, 7:50am

Calmom…you wil never win here…these people refuse to accept the fact that Barnard is affiliated with Columbia…Why they don’t get is beyond me…isn’t the “fact” that CC, Seas, GS and Barnard all attend a University wide graduation together enough of an indicator here…

acinva · May 19, 2006, 8:17am

OK, so let me get this straight. When someone asks your daughter where she is going to attend school in the fall, she’s going to say “Barnard College hyphen Columbia University.”…

calmom · May 19, 2006, 8:41am

Well, she HAS been saying “Barnard College” and then when people gave her a blank, dumbfounded stare, saying, “it’s part of Columbia University” … and if that still didn’t work, saying “it’s in New York”. The of/at/hyphen part was related to how to write it on a resume.

I tried telling someone last night that she was going to “Barnard” in “New York” – which resulted in the other person repeatedly calling it “Bard” and expressing surprise that it was near Manhattan… it didn’t register until I expressly added “Columbia” to the equation … this was someone with family in Manhattan and a kid bound for SUNY. So I can see where the frustration probably sets in rather quickly for graduating seniors who are probably asked where they are going to college by every adult they encounger. Easier to get it all out in the first sentence than to play twenty questions with every inquirer.

student2009 · May 19, 2006, 8:10pm

Collegeisfun, you have to be kidding me. I don’t know how many times we’ve all said this: BARNARD IS AFFILIATED WITH COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY. Have you read any of the posts?!? When you write, “these people refuse to accept the fact that Barnard is affiliated with Columbia…”, I have to wonder if you’re illiterate. Just read every single post again. Thanks.

I think we’ve just been trying to make a distinction between an undergraduate college of a university and an affiliated institution, which is apparently too complicated for some people to grasp. Collegeisfun is proof positive of this.

cats1127 · May 19, 2006, 8:58pm

Frankly, I don’t care much one way or the other. I’m not a die hard semantics enthusiast, but I would just like to quote what the housing booklet that I received in the mail today says…“The New Student Orientation Program (NSOP) is an extensive program that involves the commitment and collaboration of three of Columbia’s undergraduate schools–Barnard College, Columbia College, and the Fu Foundation School of Engineering and Applied Science.” The gate over Barnard’s entrance reads, “Barnard College of Columbia University.” The letterhead on Barnard’s stationery says, “Barnard College–Columbia University.” A Barnard degree says the name “Columbia University” on it. Let’s say for the sake of arguement that Barnard is not part of Columbia University, and that Barnard students have no right to mention Columbia on a job application even if it’s in reference to being an affiliated institution of their school, Barnard. Can people at least understand that there is an element of ambiguity when it comes to defining the relationship and that they could at least see how girls who do say they go to Columbia (which is certainly not all) might possibly think that they are justified in saying they go to “Columbia University?”

Columbia2002 · May 19, 2006, 9:19pm

…

Columbia2002 · May 19, 2006, 9:26pm

You must feel bad, huh? You’re ready to pay 140K for your little darling, who has worked so hard for the last 18 years, to go off to college. And, you can’t even impress your social circle. Not only are the people in your circle not impressed by the school that you’re about to drop a boatload of money for, but they’ve never even heard of the school even though they’re 5 miles from it!

It makes you frustrated, indeed. Do you see how the inferiority complex develops? Do you see where the resentment of actual Columbia students comes from? Do you see the why it becomes, in their minds, “necessary” to make your college into something that it isn’t?

Columbia2002 · May 19, 2006, 9:29pm

Why not a slash (/)? I see that fairly often.

cats1127 · May 19, 2006, 9:42pm

“You must feel bad, huh? You’re ready to pay 140K for your little darling, who has worked so hard for the last 18 years, to go off to college. And, you can’t even impress your social circle. Not only are the people in your circle not impressed by the school that you’re about to drop a boatload of money for, but they’ve never even heard of the school even though they’re 5 miles from it!”

columbia2002, that’s ridiculously smug. why such hostility? has barnard college destroyed your entire life and you thus want to exterminate every individual who goes there, or at least make them feel bad about their accomplishments? and furthermore, not having heard of a school doesn’t make it a low-ranking one, it makes it a small liberal arts college as opposed to a major university. i can’t imagine many people would argue that Swarthmore is a bad school, for example, but few people from outside the Northeast know about it.

acinva · May 19, 2006, 9:57pm

So people have never heard of Barnard or Swarthmore. So what! My daughter graduated Oberlin College and nobody ever heard of it…big deal. She just told people that it’s an LAC in Ohio…period. Why is it so important for people to have HEARD of the school to make it okay?

churchmusicmom · May 19, 2006, 10:08pm

Stating that Barnard is affilitated with Columbia is simply providing people with a perfectly valid point of reference.

It is a statement of fact, nothing more. There is no need to justify anything. To anyone.
And, Columbia2002, you have outdone yourself with the mean and vindictive tone of your last post. I simply do not get where your resentment comes from, but I am sorry this has you so obviously upset.

acinva · May 19, 2006, 10:17pm

“Stating that Barnard is affilitated with Columbia is simply providing people with a perfectly valid point of reference.”

I agree with this only I don’t understand why it’s necessary to have a point of reference. It’s an LAC in New York City. Isn’t that point of reference enough? Why does the point of reference have to be its affiliation with Columbia – to make it seem more elite?

mardad · May 19, 2006, 10:24pm

I have followed this thread for some time, and its seems like an unsolvable problem. Perhaps I can offer a little bit of an explanation in terms of geography.
In New York in particular and in the Northeast in general these schools are distinct entities in most peoples minds. They know Columbia College and SEAS as institutions of great prestige and difficult to get into. Barnard is also a distinct entity and people don’t need to be told where it is. For a student from that area to say " I go to Barnard at Columbia " would be like Madonna starting to use her last name. She doesn’t need to. Everyone knows who she is, and for her to do so would strike people as suspicious. Maybe this isn’t the real Madonna. Since there are, unfortunately, Barnard students who do say they go to Columbia to impress people, it is natural for some people in that area of the country to interpret any statement like that by a Barnard student as an intent to deceive.
In California on the other hand people’s knowledge of geography and colleges ends at the San Andreas Fault. (It’s like that Steinberg New Yorker cover only in reverse.) They have heard of Harvard, Princeton and Yale and know roughly where they are. They have heard of the other Ivy schools but don’t know where they are. University of Chicago is easy for us to find because they chose a catchy name. Duke and Tulane we have an idea about. The Columbia name doesn’t have the same eclat on this coast that it has in New York. For that reason saying that you go to Columbia when you really go to Barnard in order to impress your friends seems a little silly to us. It wouldn’t be very impressive. With anyone in the know saying you go to Barnard is sufficiently impressive. With others you have to explain that it is across the street from Columbia, and then you have to explain that Columbia is in Manhattan. And this is with people with graduate degrees who keep an apartment in Manhattan. Frankly the view may be that Columbia College is for very bright people who didn’t get into HYP, but wanted to go to an Ivy anyway. I know that that is not the view on the East Coast, but we are a little behind the times on the West Coast. If it’s any comfort, that’s not the view among the HS GCs either.
Were I a Barnard student, I would not tell anyone I went to Columbia University except as part of giving someone directions to the college. I would do this for fear of offending (now that we have all been informed) and to show pride in my college.
Were I a Columbia student who encountered a BC student who was falsely claiming to go to Columbia, I would let her suffer in her own misery. I would do this for fear that others would interpret my efforts to correct her as a sign of my own inferiority complex. “What Peter says about Paul often tells us more about Peter than it does about Paul.”

Columbia2002 · May 19, 2006, 10:27pm

How about some reading comprehension, please? The point of my post was to lampoon her insecurity in that she measures her self-worth based on whether people have heard of her daughter’s school.

My post says absolutely nothing about whether “name recognition” is a benchmark of a good school. In fact, I’ve stated that the Columbia name isn’t even a household name. Plenty of laymen think Columbia is a country in South America.

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