Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother - new book about Chinese parenting

<p>“If musical and artistic people would get together and form a governing body like the NCAA and compete against other colleges in leagues like collegiate sports do, I’m sure there would be serious recruiting of musicians and artists”</p>

<p>the experience of Winter Guard suggests not. </p>

<p>[url=&lt;a href=“http://www.wgi.org/]Home”&gt;http://www.wgi.org/]Home</a> - Winter Guard International . Sport Of The Arts<a href=“And%20yeah,%20while%20high%20schools%20dominate%20the%20competitions,%20there%20are%20college%20levels%20at%20the%20meets,%20and%20usually%20at%20%20least%20a%20few%20college%20guards%20show%20up”>/url</a></p>

<p>and yeah, if we had been like Ms Chua, we would probably not have allowed our DD to pick guard over a sport, say. That was her choice. We felt it was important to her growth, maturity to let her make her own choice. And to her mental health - there was so much in HS she couldnt choose.</p>

<p>Oldfort, you are using stats from a specific instance, that some percentage of kids from the private school you know were recruited for sports and ended up playing them in college and making the projection that is why they got in, and that is dubious stats. First of all, if the kids are going to a high end prep school, chances are they got good grades and SAT scores, so playing sports could very well have been an edge of sorts, like another strong EC, but it also could have been from being a student from a strong prep school.</p>

<p>Ivy league schools are division 1-a, not straight 1, and for example, the Ivy league football programs are not eligible for the BCS bowl series, they are in a totally different league. Division 1 football schools that offer football scholarships are night and day different. In basketball it is different, the ivy league champ has a birth in the NCAA championship series. Very few kids from ivy league schools get into either pro football or basketball, which tells you what the levels of competition are like. More importantly, coaches may recruit kids and there may be an edge with certain sports in getting in, where you can be marginally less talented academically and get in, but given the competition to those schools, I doubt that affects very many kids, and using that as a ‘ticket’ to the ivy league is literally putting your trust in something that may not pan out, among other things, there are millions of kids playing sports in high school, and given the limited number of spots at ivy league schools in sports, and the fact that other then maybe basketball and football do they even put that much emphasis on competitive sports, it is unlikely that a kid will get that kind of edge. If your local prep school recruited high caliber athletes, that could an exception, but using sports as a golden ticket? Given the sheer numbers of good athletes out there at the high school level, it is unlikely using sports as a ticket to the ivies would work out well. Among other things, with football and basketball, kids who are good at them but are small are not going to be able to go to a division 1 school, a kid who is 5’ 11 and 190 pounds is a midget in division 1 football, and a 5’ 10" kid who played basketball isn’t going to get into division 1 programs, too small…on the other hand, in football the ivies would find a 5’ 11" kid at 190 to be fine…so you are going to have a lot of top athletic kids competing for the few ‘sports spots’. </p>

<p>I am sure there are cases where kids get into ivies on sports, but there are also a lot of great athletes out there who also are champs at athletics, so if they give an edge it is going to be nothing like division 1 sports, where they recruit kids who otherwise wouldn’t be allowed near the school if applying as an academic student. I think for an HYP school, that playing a sport well may give a kid a boost as an EC, but other then a rather limited number of kids there are very, very few spots where sports literally gets the kids in. I have heard the same thing about the large number of kids who get into ivies playing music who are in high level music programs, but the thing people leave out is many of those kids would have made it into the schools without the music, they have top level GPA’s, AP’s up to the kazoo, SAT’s near perfect level and a lot of other ec’s, too from top notch schools. When dealing with causal relationships, it you can’t assume because X happens Y was behind it. </p>

<p>Put it this way, if they came up with a study that showed me that student athletes at ivy schools, as a whole, did much poorer then non athlete admits (the way recent studies have shown that legacies as a whole are generally less talented then non legacy admits), then I will believe it, but what I have seen written is that in certain cases, with certain programs (basketball, football come to mind) some student athletes are admitted towards the lower end of the range, but nothing that this is true across the board.</p>

<p>Why did this thread devolve into a comparison of whether it’s academics, music performance, or athletic prowess that best gets a kid into the Ivies? Good lord, isn’t there any discussion of parenting goals that aren’t about optimizing college admittance success, and/or defining such success as being only those 8 schools?</p>

<p>^^^ this is what happens 1500+ posts into a thread! No predicting.</p>

<p>And when people have opinion about things they know nothing about. On that note, I will get myself out of here. Maybe mod should shut this thread down.</p>

<p>We maybe better off to talk to our kids or spouse. Oh, but wait, they don’t want to listen to us.</p>

<p>I’ll have a last word before you shut this thread down. We parents parent more or less like our own parents. Chua’s daughters are in good hands because they have a set of completely different kind of parents with equal influence.</p>

<p>My mother is Chinese but she doesn’t subscribe to Tiger Mother boot camp. Thank G…! I think there are good reasons why the rolls of Nobel Laureates do not include proportionately as many as you would think non U.S. educated, non U.S. research granted Asians. I think Asian parenting and Asian training is one of the reasons. While regimented forced training does produce pets that can perform tricks it also nearly completely blocks transcendent creativity, native problem solving, and inventiveness. I saw a good example of that last night watching the Asian father of a TJ student try to put air in the tires of his Toyota Sienna. His OCD approach took more than 20 mins while I was waiting and I had to leave without getting air in my own tires, which I badly needed. I had never seen anything like it. He was simply over focused on putting in the EXACT amount of air probably BETWEEN the psi markers on the gauge! To me it was a poignant cultural example of Tiger parenting. Way too far into the details.</p>

<p>While chlidren of Tiger mothers certainly perform at high levels of achievement and ultimately go to good schools and get good jobs etc. there are definitley other ethnicities with different systems of parenting that “encourage”, support, and create environments and approaches that exceed those “produced” by Asian parenting. I think those ethnicities have probably been having a pretty good laugh during these debates about overly proud Tiger Mothers and the comparative results they produce.</p>

<p>Fortunately for the U.S. we all know that Asia lacks creativity and innovation, and they know it too. They are desperate to learn how. I can think of about 6 major reasons why they will fail, including Tiger Mother training. That’s good for the U.S. For a very long time we will continue to invent, create and innovate and profit thereby, and for a very long time Asia will continue to serve out needs to produce and copy. Mutual benefit.</p>

<p>^glad, welcome to the board, and good observations from your experience. But one quick comment: I have heard before the disctinction between US style yankee ingenuity and Asian copy-catness.</p>

<p>BUT</p>

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<p>is attempting to summarize 300 million people in the US and 1-2 BILLION people in the Asian continent. I suspect there is a whole lot of complexity there that goes under the radar of our summary observations; I bet there is a lot of ingenuity going on in Asia right now, too. Similar thing, of course, with the ‘tiger mama’; there’s LOTS of detail in the parenting world going on beyond what that author can express. But it pays her bills. :)</p>

<p>I have been reading this forum for a while now. I didnt read the book(will be reading it at the earliest possible) and I definitly do not agree on pressuring your child to do some thing for hours and hours together if that is not the child wants by threatening. As some one who is raised and trianed in an Asian country and have been teaching here for 7 years, I have nothing but praise for the kind of values US education system tries to impart. My perspective on parenting/learning/teaching have changed a great deal after I came here. I try to grab the best of both world- Punishing children/hurting children seemd natural while I was there as that is how I was raised and that is what I have seen around. It was quite normal. But now that I have seen a different style and approach, I see the benifit and I adapted. At the same time, I can understand when Chua says there are things that tiger mom can say and get away with: like telling her daughter to reduce weight- because children dont take it personally. Most of the people in this forum doesnt understand it- because there is a BIG CULTURE DIFFERENCE. I am familer with both the cultures, so I get what she is trying to say. </p>

<p>GLADITSOVER: Most innovations happen here and that is why a lot of people come here- to be a part of it. And I have noticed that a number of nobal prize winners are first or second generation immigrants.</p>

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<p>I don’t see the root of the supposed lack-of-innovation problem in Asia as the lack of creativity, but rather as something else entirely. Thank you as well for sharing the hilarious anecdote about the father, and it’s simply fascinating how you view that as the result of Chua styled parenting.</p>

<p>Without getting into who does what, creativity and innovation go hand and hand, and there are cultural reasons why certain approaches work in terms of promoting creativity and innovation more then others.</p>

<p>Using the example of the book’s approach, the problem is that creativity and innovation take, for lack of a better word, a willingness to go beyond what is ‘important’, it takes looking at things, not as a series of rules on how to do it ‘the right way’ but a path with many approaches. Chua’s approach assumes something fundamentally against creativity, it assumes that there is only one right way and it is a narrow, rigid path, defined by ‘never wasting time’ and ‘doing the important things’ and excelling at them.</p>

<p>The history of innovation and creativity is full of people and generally it is not people like that, people who grow up with ideas like that may very well be successful but it likely is going to be status quo. Innovation and creativity come from being able to look beyond that and think about things most people don’t. </p>

<p>Okay, so what are the cultural aspects that can drive creativity? Here are some:</p>

<p>-A focus on the individual is critical, more importantly respect for the individual. In cultures that are group based, where, for example, society trumps the individual, it can be hard to create, because as an individual you aren’t basically allowed to go there. China is facing that big time, when you have a government of any kind that limits access to information, that is paranoid about ‘order’, creativity is a dangerous thing. It also breeds hierarchy, where you do as the boss says, and so forth (think of Chua totally obliterating what her kids want to do, with almost everything</p>

<p>-a culture with a healthy disrespect for authority, people willing to tell ‘experts’ and the like where to go with themselves. My father used to call that respecting the mavericks, and that is something some cultures have done a good job with. I have a pretty good example of this, from a while ago. The lean production techniques Japanese companies made famous require, among other things, employees willing to speak up and point out errors and problems. Akio Morita, the head of Sony, was asked if he worried about Sony TV sets being made in the US (San Diego then), about US workers screwing up the works, and he basically laughed. He said that if anything, the US workers were better then the Japanese ones, because an assembly line worker in the US, given the chance, was not afraid to challenge something they felt was designed badly, challenge an engineer, which in Japan would be unthinkable…challenge an engineer with a college degree? No way…</p>

<p>-The idea of second and third chances, and also that failing is often the path to succeeding. When you have a culture, that is kind of like what Ms. Chua et al are part of, that fears failure, that does everything it can to guarantee success, by staying with time tested formulas for success, a narrow path, etc, it may achieve success financially, but what does the kid learn? That failure is this horrible thing, that if you fail at something you try it is the end of the world, that it is shameful and so forth. </p>

<p>How many scientists and engineers have had multiple failures before hitting pay dirt (and how many products came out of failure? Polymer plastics and the post it note came from failures). Edison in his search for new things failed a lot more then he succeeded, Henry Ford’s first company went under…and so forth. </p>

<p>If you are afraid to fail, you also are afraid to take risks. </p>

<p>-Creation and innovation take creating new ways to do things, come up with what Richard Feynman called “a different set of tools”. When you have rote teaching, that teaches 'this is the way, do it this way, it is the only way" and you get evaluated on doing it the one, true way, how can that person ever innovate or be truly creative, when they are told anything but this one way is wrong (btw, US schools aren’t necessarily a hotbed for this kind of thing necessarily, lot of dead wood, stupid teachers who are just as rigid), but the culture here is, we respect the person who builds the better mousetrap, while in other cultures it is like “but the old mousetrap has worked for centuries, why change it?”. I ran into this in college, where I had foreign trained TA’s taking points off exams because I took a different approach to solving a problem, or doing things like skipping basic alegebra steps that were obvious, because they were taught “you show every line, you show every step, no questions asked” (I generally got the points back after talking to the professor). </p>

<p>I have noted before that the academia of Einsteins day was quite that rigid, and that had he stayed in it, after getting his PHd, he probably wouldn’t have rocked the world of physics…he would have been pretty much forced to stay in the bounds of what was ‘the truth’, of maxwell and newton, and wouldn’t have been able to dream.</p>

<p>-cultures that value nothing unless it ‘produces value’ also have trouble with creativity and innovation, which often comes out of ‘unproductive’ work. Some great things were created by accident, by people ‘playing around’, people dreaming or doing something like drumming or cracking safes. </p>

<p>-cultures that readily adopt the ideas of other places tend to be more creative and innovative. As rough as it can be at times, the US, because it is not homogeneous, because it has always kind of taken bits and pieces from all over, because it values oddballs and weirdos other countries would probably put in a mental hospital or otherwise ignore them, has sparks flying from all over. Has nothing to do about ethnicity, some of the great breakthroughs in science have happened from people from all over the world working in the US, Asian, non asian, whatever…on the other hand, if they were working in their native country, they very well may never have been able to do what they did, because the environment was too constricting.</p>

<p>My problem with all this is if people look at the accomplishments of people raised by Chua and her type in a one dimensional world, look at the track record of academic success, and whatever, and not ask the real question “what did they really do? What did they create? What did they leave behind?”. You can do well in school, and get that great job, and make a lot of money, but is that the only kind of success? Is an investment banker who made millions worth more then the poet or musician? Is the person who discovers a cure for cancer, who probably isn’t making a lot, worth more then Bernie Madoff or Warren Buffet?</p>

<p>Thanks to everyone for the very interesting replies to my post. I was just trying to call it like I see it.</p>

<p>musicprnt, thanks especially to you. That is a fantastic analysis and you really DID hit on exactly all the other 6 points I would have elaborated on had I had half your talent. Much of my family is Asian and living in Asia and I think I do have a pretty good handle on the pros and cons of Asian culture and society. What you have said really resonates with me in every respect. You have a really deep understanding of the processes and circumstances that drive creativity and innovation. You could write a book. Maybe you have! Maybe several.</p>

<p>xrCalico23, What I neglected to clarify was that I felt and conjectured that the behavior of the Asian man trying to put air in his tires with such OCD exactness demonstrated one of the results of the over-regimented training perpetrated by his own tiger parents and a culture that prizes exactness, precision and perfection in all things. Eventually the results can be crippling and inefficient. Certainly it was that night for that man and for me! At least that’s what my biases and prejudices were indicating to me at the time!</p>

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<p>Chua’s approach fundamentally assumes that the “right” paths / answers have ALREADY been discovered, and achievement is showing how quickly and how well you can adhere to those paths. Which is why the measure of success is the grade of 100 on the test, not the invention of something new. Which is why the goal is to perform other people’s works on the piano, not tinker around and possibly come up with something new.</p>

<p>Pizzagirl-</p>

<p>While I understand where you are coming from, you have to be careful when it comes to music,every type of music has its own forms and such. In Jazz, for example, you cannot play the music ‘from the sheet music’ and be taken seriously, since Jazz by its very nature is improvisational, and in a folk based tradition like fiddling it is all about how you express it.</p>

<p>It is very different in classical music, for a lot of reasons (some of them not so good IMO, but that is another story). Composing classical music is not simply fooling around, it is complex, and to be a composer is a very exacting thing. There are of course people who do both, Vivaldi was a musician, Mozart was an excellent pianist and violinist, Chopin and Liszt were top notch pianists, and it goes on into modern times…but that is relatively rare. </p>

<p>I think in the case of classical music, I think what is more appropriate is someone who finds their own voice within the music, what differentiates pianists and soloists is how they shape the work, within the scope of what the composer wrote there are ways to shape notes, play with dynamics, and so forth, to make a piece their own, Joshua Bell plays very differently then Perlman, Heifetz and Millstein were different…wonderful, but in their own ways. One of the knocks on a lot of these kids who achieve stunning technical results, who win the competitions and such, are that when they learn, they basically are taught by their teacher how to play every note, shape things, etc, they basically are imitating what the teacher does and playing it back exactly, which can work in winning competitions (which IME are often judged almost purely on technical aspects, there was a scathing criticism of competitions in this month’s Gramaphone magazine that rips the concept of competition winners being great musicians…), but they have little originality, and often lack things like stage presence and connection with the audience that make for a great musician (obviously, there are kids who are so musical they find their way anyway)…and I have seen enough of this in the performances I see routinely to make me think that this is quite common. </p>

<p>I think the artistry of music is taking a piece and making it your own, but when you play music to meet an artificial standard that is competitions and such, that often is lacking and in that I agree totally.</p>

<p>Glad-
I can’t take credit for what I have written about, this has been written about by experts and by people who themselves were incredibly creative, brilliant people, in their life story. Yo Yo Ma the cellist talks about how he had to break from his father, who basically wanted him to keep on the path he had set, which reading between the lines sounds like the rigid way of playing/learning music, and said if he hadn’t of done that he wouldn’t have made it. Malcolm Gladwell among others has written on it, and this is nothing new, this has been known for many years, been studied up to the wazoo, and every time it comes to similar conclusions about what really works when it comes to creativity and innovation. </p>

<p>Richard Feynman hated the kind of rote learning we are talking about (I highly recommend reading his own funny books, Surely Your Joking, Mr. Feynman and "“What do you care what they think”…and the bios on him as well. He fought the kind of test based, rote learning that is the core of what Chua and others do. He told the story about teaching in Brazil, and being shocked at what passed for physics education. He gave as an example, in physics, that when light enters a fluid the angle of incidence=angle of refraction (basically, that the light is bent by an angle equal to the angle the light hits the fluid)…the kids could describe the formula, probably calculate what happens, but when Feynman asked them to try and reason through why that is so, they were lost. Fact based learning, where what something is rather then why, can lead to great test scores, but what does it do about learning the fundamentals of things? </p>

<p>Frankly, our education system is already too far in this extreme IMO, and it is evident when you hear what people claim science to be. When I was growing up, we learned how science works, were encouraged to think in that method, we learned the difference between hypothesis and theory, and also learned what science can and can’t do. We have generations whose version of science is what is on some standardized exam, and when you do that you start thinking science is like common versions of revealed religion, that the ‘truth’ is simply facts you regurgitate. You can get a 5 on a the AP Bio exam by knowing how evolution is supposed to work, but you don’t have to know much about how scientists frame how it works, how they test it, change it, and so forth, you can get a 5 on the AP Chem or Physics tests by knowing simply how to mechanically solve problems…and with that being the emphasis, no wonder people think science is belief or ‘revealed knowledge’ and the like, or that theory in science means “guess”…</p>

<p>One of the problems with all this is assuming learning and the search for knowledge and such is a mechanical process, like solving an equation, and it isn’t. Mechanically, you can do incremental stuff, tweak this, change that, but that isn’t the same thing, it takes applying well learned methodology and knowledge and dreaming, saying “what if” and ignoring what others have said is or isn’t possible. Feynman, who was interested in fields well beyond his core of physics, who said that when he looked at something, in his own field or another, that he wouldn’t assume that whatever it was was true, but rather using the information given would work it through and see if he agreed…and in the process of doing that, he made suggestions and discoveries in other fields that later on hit paydirt…</p>

<p>One of the downsides of rote learning is that it doesn’t encourage questions, something creativity and innovation require, it basically says 'Study facts, as known, regurgitate for a test/exam, get A, you are great"…feynman described science as starting with a question, going on with questions, and in effect never ending since the questions never really end…big difference from “This is the way you do it, this is the way to go, anything else is worthless”.</p>

<p>I think the book is stupid!</p>

<p>^^^ :smiley: :smiley: :D</p>

<p>Finally read it (didn’t spend a dime - borrowed it from a friend). I wouldn’t call it stupid, or even a waste of my time, though it was an unpleasant read. And yes, I can see Ms. Chua’s sense of irony and humor at play, though her humor does not appeal to me. I guess it answered the very first question that popped into my head when I read the WSJ article last month - why does such an accomplished, educated woman choose to raise her children in that way? And, as it turns out, the reviewers and about 80 percent of the posters on this thread were correct. Because she’s a big old NARCISSIST.</p>

<p>^^^ In what way is the book “stupid”, honeys&clover? Have you read it?</p>

<p>I’ve been reading this discussion from the beginning and was intrigued enough to pick it up from the library and read it. I’m fairly certain that I’ll be chastised for saying that I thought Chua makes some very important and valuable points in explaining her approach to child-rearing.</p>

<p>I made the mistake of saying that in a group of mothers at a recent brunch and was amazed at the passion of some of the others (who had only read exerpts) in denouncing the book and the author. Really, they were literally quivering with outrage.</p>

<p>While I’ve brought up my kids very differently from Chua, I felt like she explained why she took the approach she did pretty well and was far more honest about her shortcomings than most parents are willing to be in public. I must say, I do agree with her on several important points and frankly wish I’d been a bit less laid back and a bit more like her in some ways. However, the most interesting thing about the book to me is in the reactions to it. I think there’s been little actual discussion and more simple bile-spewing at the author. </p>

<p>I’m really curious as to why this single book has hit such a raw nerve.</p>

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<p>Really? </p>

<p>[China</a> patents surge in 2009 as U.S. filings plunge | Reuters](<a href=“http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/02/08/us-patents-wipo-idUSTRE6172PY20100208]China”>http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/02/08/us-patents-wipo-idUSTRE6172PY20100208)</p>

<p>*China bucked an unprecedented decline in global patent filings last year, boosting its total by 29.7 percent, while the United States saw a fall of 11.4 percent, the world patent watchdog WIPO said on Monday.</p>

<p>Japan, whose companies held four of the top 10 spots among company filings under WIPO’s Patent Cooperation Treaty (PCT), and South Korea also notched up small increases despite international economic and financial woes.</p>

<p>“This marks a strong performance by the east Asian countries,” said WIPO Director-General Francis Gurry. Companies in the region had clearly recognized that innovation offered one way out of the crisis, he added.*</p>

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<p>I know you are a HS senior and probably don’t know that around 1940’s till almost 15 years ago when US educated Asians received their Nobel prizes, Asia was considered third world and hardly any advanced research facilities were available. In China, during the Mao era, most universities were closed. The best and the brightest wanted to come to the US to continue their higher education. I won’t be surprised if their Asian upbringing, hard work, contributed a lot to their successes.</p>

<p>I wouldn’t say Asians lack creativity and innovation now.</p>

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