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</p>
<p>I am not sure if this is true all the time. I think some kids who are not tippy top can be tutored into tippy top levels and stay there. That’s the concern and that’s what drives competitions up unfortunately. Tipy top level math in HS may be tippy top but not a cutting edge rocket science that only those born to be can master.</p>
<p>Sorry to inject a side issue into this discussion, but since Iglooo has just posted: Literally, with my right hand, I cannot simultaneously strike two keys on a piano that are an octave apart. Many of the pieces I was attempting to play called for doing this while my left hand was occupied with other notes & could not reach the lower of the two keys for the right hand. Is there really some way to handle this short of surgery? And does anyone have a hand-span of two octaves on a piano?</p>
<p>What my piano teacher showed me was to hit a note first and instantly rolled your hand to hit the second note, doing all this at a lightening speed that it looked like she was playing the octave. BTW her hand didn’t span an octave.</p>
<p>Thanks, Iglooo, Piano instruction has apparently improved since I last took lessons! Or else I just grew up in a benighted area. This news comes a bit too late for me now, but could be useful for (eventual) grandchildren!</p>
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</p>
<p>^ This.</p>
<p>and </p>
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</p>
<p>^ This.</p>
<p>In regard to the first passage, down-time (awake and asleep) is actually rather important in allowing the brain to process and assimilate the day’s/portion of day’s/portion of week’s learning.</p>
<p>But yes, many of us have the experience that high levels of achievement and self-direction are not mutually exclusive.</p>
<p>The school district changed their policies to keep up with the upward trend in achievement brought about by ever increasing numbers of students who are taking math classes outside of school in order to move ahead in level. They don’t have enough teachers who can teach AP math and science, and thus the numbers of sections are limited by teacher qualifications and willingness to take on the tougher classes. Therefore, they limit the number of students in elementary and middle school who enter the advanced track. There used to be enough advanced classes for everyone who was interested and had the ability, such that a non-Asian/non-outside tutored smart kid had no trouble gaining access. Now, with a larger Asian population, there are too many who want to be in those classes and will go to whatever lengths to ensure access, which means outside classes to jump ahead 3 grade levels. It’s a vicious circle.</p>
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</p>
<p>The poor qualifications of the teachers seems like the root of the problem. What are the qualifications that the district has to hire a math or science teacher?</p>
<p>But perhaps another way would be to direct the “extra” advanced students to the local community colleges for actual college level math and science (etc.) courses if the high school does not have enough qualified teachers. Holding capable students back in classes where they are bored, or forcing them to do extra test prepping and cramming to get into classes where they will be interested in learning something, does them a disservice.</p>
<p>People who are saying myself and others are denigrating Sophia are taking that out of the context of the broader discussion, and that is the claim that Chua’s parenting is the ‘superior’ method of parenting, and people are reacting to that, and especially now that Sophia has gotten into Harvard et al we have the articles saying “tiger mom validated” and so forth… </p>
<p>What I am denigrating is the idea that Chua’s parenting is superior to another style or any other for that matter, or that what Sophia did do proves it (about the only thing I denigrate is parents not being parents). My comment about the Carnegie Hall debut, for example, was to debunk that this somehow proved that Chua produced a musical prodigy with Sophia, that her ‘debut’ at carnegie hall, which is used in almost every article about Sophia, doesn’t mean that Sophia is necessarily a prodigy or the equivalent of Emmanuel Ax. There are kids in the pre college programs younger then Sophia, right now, who have professional management and have played with the NY Phil, Chicago Symphony and so forth and they and their parents have been told not to brag about it, among other things because a)there are always kids more talented then they are and b) it makes them look like an idiot. I am demeaning basically what is bragging, throwing out stuff to prove someone is ‘superior’. BTW, this is not uncommon, there are a ton of parents who do this in the music world of all kinds, and I disapprove of that as well, it is putting comparisons where comparisons are not needed. </p>
<p>I would go up to Sophia and tell her congrats on winning a competition, whatever, gladly, because it is a feat, and I think it stands on its own feat, but I also object to her mother or the people writing the articles making it look like this vindicates Chua’s methods, because it doesn’t. A lot of kids deserve congratulations then for playing Carnegie Hall, my child has played there probably more then a dozen times now, lot of other kids have played it as well. Some got it by getting into it by winning tough, tough competitions like the young artists competition, some got in by getting into difficult youth orchestra and chamber programs, others get in for being members of a high school or group of high schools having the funds to rent out carnegie hall, others by winning competitions not particularly up there, and to me they all deserve kudos for playing music, for caring enough to do so, whatever the level, what I object to is Chua or the idiots writing the articles that make it seem like her feat is above others or that this therefore makes Chua some sort of genius, which is ludicrous. </p>
<p>As far as my criticism of Sophia’s accomplishment goes, I wasn’t, Oldfort and others love to jump without reading, my comment simply was that her path to getting into Harvard was not as great a feat as it is for some other people, not that it was easy or that she didn’t have to work, she wasn’t a legacy like GW Bush, people who get in there simply for existing, she got in because she had the creds to do so. However, keep in mind that a lot of kids who probably had equally great creds, or maybe even better, didn’t get into Harvard and Yale and so forth, and what may have tipped the balance, made it easier, was that she was the daughter of legacies and also came from a silver spoon kind of background, and that does make a difference, despite all the crap about equality in this country and so forth, it isn’t true, access is not equal, that’s all. I think Sophia probably deserved to get in there, as other kids hopefully do, I am just saying that making the case that Chua’s method produced a miracle and got her into Harvard and Yale is stretching the truth a bit, if not more. If Sophia’s parents had been poor immigrants (which btw, a number of kids getting into HYP et al are) and she achieved those results, it might be more a proof of ‘tiger mothering’ then this story, that’s all.</p>
<p>And it is interesting, those ragging on others for criticizing Chua,claiming it is racism, don’t see something, not surprisingly, and that is the racism/cultural bias implicit in the very term ‘Chinese mothering’ and “superior”, she labeled it as Chinese parenting. Not only that, but in her book and in her article she denigrates other parenting styles, specifically what she calls ‘western parenting’ as ‘lazy’ and ‘inferior’, and what is that but denigrating stereotypes that like “Asian” encompasses a wide range of people, cultures and approaches. </p>
<p>It is also interesting that people are claiming the parents on here are knocking Sophia (which I for one am not), yet few or any of them who so complain are criticizing Amy Chua, because she was the one, by writing the book, who brought the firestorm on her kids and more importantly, how about criticizing her for doing what they claim of the rest of us, knocking in broad terms what other parents have done. Given the fact that the overwhelming majority of kids, from every background, are not raised by a parent like Chua or by that style, and many of those kids will probably do as well or even better then kids raised by that method, it is not only racist, it is ignorant of what success means and where it comes from and should be criticized. </p>
<p>For me, I hope that Harvard turns out to be an eye opening experience for Sophia, that she learns life lessons there and finds out that life is a very complicated, beautiful experience, that as ugly and as tough as it is at times, also provides a lot of opportunities to see a lot of miracles, and that life is not just about achieving concrete goals or specific benchmarks but rather experiencing things simply for experiencing them (who knows, she might actually get to go to a music performance to sit and enjoy it, rather then playing in competition to win it), and I hope she finds a healthy rejection of what her mom wants and rather does what she wants to do.</p>
<p>People who are saying myself and others are denigrating Sophia are taking that out of the context of the broader discussion, and that is the claim that Chua’s parenting is the ‘superior’ method of parenting, and people are reacting to that, and especially now that Sophia has gotten into Harvard et al we have the articles saying “tiger mom validated” and so forth… </p>
<p>What I am denigrating is the idea that Chua’s parenting is superior to another style or any other for that matter, or that what Sophia did do proves it (about the only thing I denigrate is parents not being parents). My comment about the Carnegie Hall debut, for example, was to debunk that this somehow proved that Chua produced a musical prodigy with Sophia, that her ‘debut’ at carnegie hall, which is used in almost every article about Sophia, doesn’t mean that Sophia is necessarily a prodigy or the equivalent of Emmanuel Ax. There are kids in the pre college programs younger then Sophia, right now, who have professional management and have played with the NY Phil, Chicago Symphony and so forth and they and their parents have been told not to brag about it, among other things because a)there are always kids more talented then they are and b) it makes them look like an idiot. I am demeaning basically what is bragging, throwing out stuff to prove someone is ‘superior’. BTW, this is not uncommon, there are a ton of parents who do this in the music world of all kinds, and I disapprove of that as well, it is putting comparisons where comparisons are not needed. </p>
<p>I would go up to Sophia and tell her congrats on winning a competition, whatever, gladly, because it is a feat, and I think it stands on its own feat, but I also object to her mother or the people writing the articles making it look like this vindicates Chua’s methods, because it doesn’t. A lot of kids deserve congratulations then for playing Carnegie Hall, my child has played there probably more then a dozen times now, lot of other kids have played it as well. Some got it by getting into it by winning tough, tough competitions like the young artists competition, some got in by getting into difficult youth orchestra and chamber programs, others get in for being members of a high school or group of high schools having the funds to rent out carnegie hall, others by winning competitions not particularly up there, and to me they all deserve kudos for playing music, for caring enough to do so, whatever the level, what I object to is Chua or the idiots writing the articles that make it seem like her feat is above others or that this therefore makes Chua some sort of genius, which is ludicrous. </p>
<p>As far as my criticism of Sophia’s accomplishment goes, I wasn’t, Oldfort and others love to jump without reading, my comment simply was that her path to getting into Harvard was not as great a feat as it is for some other people, not that it was easy or that she didn’t have to work, she wasn’t a legacy like GW Bush, people who get in there simply for existing, she got in because she had the creds to do so. However, keep in mind that a lot of kids who probably had equally great creds, or maybe even better, didn’t get into Harvard and Yale and so forth, and what may have tipped the balance, made it easier, was that she was the daughter of legacies and also came from a silver spoon kind of background, and that does make a difference, despite all the crap about equality in this country and so forth, it isn’t true, access is not equal, that’s all. I think Sophia probably deserved to get in there, as other kids hopefully do, I am just saying that making the case that Chua’s method produced a miracle and got her into Harvard and Yale is stretching the truth a bit, if not more. If Sophia’s parents had been poor immigrants (which btw, a number of kids getting into HYP et al are) and she achieved those results, it might be more a proof of ‘tiger mothering’ then this story, that’s all.</p>
<p>And it is interesting, those ragging on others for criticizing Chua,claiming it is racism, don’t see something, not surprisingly, and that is the racism/cultural bias implicit in the very term ‘Chinese mothering’ and “superior”, she labeled it as Chinese parenting. Not only that, but in her book and in her article she denigrates other parenting styles, specifically what she calls ‘western parenting’ as ‘lazy’ and ‘inferior’, and what is that but denigrating stereotypes that like “Asian” encompasses a wide range of people, cultures and approaches. </p>
<p>It is also interesting that people are claiming the parents on here are knocking Sophia (which I for one am not), yet few or any of them who so complain are criticizing Amy Chua, because she was the one, by writing the book, who brought the firestorm on her kids and more importantly, how about criticizing her for doing what they claim of the rest of us, knocking in broad terms what other parents have done. Given the fact that the overwhelming majority of kids, from every background, are not raised by a parent like Chua or by that style, and many of those kids will probably do as well or even better then kids raised by that method, it is not only racist, it is ignorant of what success means and where it comes from and should be criticized. </p>
<p>For me, I hope that Harvard turns out to be an eye opening experience for Sophia, that she learns life lessons there and finds out that life is a very complicated, beautiful experience, that as ugly and as tough as it is at times, also provides a lot of opportunities to see a lot of miracles, and that life is not just about achieving concrete goals or specific benchmarks but rather experiencing things simply for experiencing them (who knows, she might actually get to go to a music performance to sit and enjoy it, rather then playing in competition to win it), and I hope she finds a healthy rejection of what her mom wants and rather does what she wants to do.</p>
<p>cbreeze-
I wasn’t using that music festival as an example because it was a Korean group sponsoring it, I was using it because the competition is not necessarily at a very high level, that’s all, there are some high level kids in there, but for the most part that are not. Music competitions are as common as fast food outlets, there are a ton of them, and a relatively small percentage represent high level musicians, that’s all:). As for Koreans, a large percentage of high level music students these days tends to be from Korean background, especially in the string and piano world, so it has nothing to do with the group being Korean or a reflection on musical ability.</p>
<p>
I haven´t been reading your posts, I was addressing other posters. I only noticed it this time because my name was mentioned.</p>
<p>My apologies, Oldfort, I thought you had been responding to one of mine.</p>
<p>I admit I am sour grapes over Chua, but not because of her D’s success. Like others on this thread, I’ve got 2 in the Ivy League as a result of my crappy western parenting, lol. I’m just mad that I didn’t get a book contract. Maybe its not too late!</p>
<p>I’m not sure what inspired all the “piling on”. I haven’t read the entire thread, but I have not seen any denigration of Amy Chua’s children’s accomplishments. Xiggi seems to be one of the targets although, as he pointed out, he has made no negative comments about the children. The point of his recent comments, which he expressed more than once, is that no matter the results of Chua’s parenting, the children have lost something precious, a normal childhood. I agree with this; IMO nothing justifies the kind of treatment that Chua described.</p>
<p>Those of us who, either because we are in the music world or because we live in the NYC area, know the situation at Carnegie Hall, pointed out that Sophia’s “Carnegie Hall debut” was probably not what most people would think, were not diminishing her accomplishments. She is clearly an accomplished musician. Her mother is, apparently, inflating those accomplishments, and that is what we were pointing out.</p>
<p>“I’m just mad that I didn’t get a book contract. Maybe its not too late!”</p>
<p>You could probably make a parody book and it would be a best seller. It’s time for the Eagle mothers to be heard.</p>
<p>Parody book! ala The Wind Done Gone…Tiger Mother Done Gone. </p>
<p>Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon Mother</p>
<p>Hyena Mother</p>
<p>Battle Hymn of the Lazy Western Parent</p>
<p>Swan Song of the Tiger Mother</p>
<p>anyone else?</p>
<p>How about,</p>
<p>Nanny-nanny-boo-boo, Tiger Mom got one, but lazy western mom with no legacy, prof or fame got two-oo!</p>
<p>Battle Hymn of the Sloth Mother</p>
<p>Chronicles of Slackeria</p>
<p>The Battle Cry of “Who cares?”</p>
<p>I vote for Battle Hymn of the Lazy Western Parent - have you found an agent yet, mommusic?</p>
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</p>
<p>Why no one on this board talk about genes? Dah, the Chinese kids here are so smart, so driven. This is because they have the right smart/driven genes. Among billions of Chinese, only the very best came here to spread their seeds. There are millions dumb Chinese( to be politically correct, shall we call them disadvantaged?) live in China now, not all Chinese are smart, and not all tiger cubs in China can even graduate from high school. It just happens that the Chinese population here are an extremely gifted cluster, they are selected out of a billion people (they all came here with visas …. The dumb ones can’t get visas ….).</p>
<p>Chua’s dad carried smart/driven gene, so did Chua and her daughters. Of course, they’ll be successful.</p>