Berea Named Best Liberal Arts College 2025 by Washington Monthly

Applying to College College Headlines
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The problem with using salary data five years out of college in the context of liberal arts colleges is that many students from these colleges pursue the PhD, and some of them will be academics while others will go into industry, particularly consulting, at pretty high salaries. We know what this looks like.

Still another cohort will go get their masters and effectively delay the salary progression game by a couple of years.

The liberal arts college model is not “plug and play.” It’s a longer game.

There are other considerations, too. In the ongoing and seemingly tireless fight against notions of “prestige” or questioning the value of schools whose reputations are well regarded, it is worth noting something from the above given example of 2024 graduating class. A school graduating roughly 700+ kids aiming in probably 600 different directions (by their own volition) that places 4 graduates at a highly selective employer like McKinsey is not nothing. And as that example also shows, there are kids going into fields like entertainment and education, where one will pay their dues for a while.

There’s nothing wrong with nursing but it’s important to understand that many students are playing a longer game, some of which involves making a lot of money and some of which does not.

I have two LAC educated students and am familiar with the outcomes of their many classmates. Nobody is struggling to pay their bills 5 years out of college.

This is a large and clumsy data scoop. I’m not defending the ivory tower but I am cautioning against readers of this forum drawing big conclusions from it, which seems to be a sub-goal of this thread. It’s not a baseline. It’s an incomplete and blunt data set.

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I disagree. You are suggesting a higher % of these kids go to grad school. Hence lower salaries 5 years out.

But that’s the methodology - so if the data is true.

More school = more expense in most cases and a loss of earnings.

That’s not to say LACs aren’t worthy. But that is to say using the methodology the study uses - well the data is the data.

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Let’s try and be more precise with our language. I’m not suggesting anything. When controlling for size of undergraduate population, LACs take up a big chunk of the PhD producing college population. People know this; I’m not surmising it to be true. There are rankings that show it.

And with what, exactly, do you disagree? You can have any opinion you want to have; you cannot, however, have your own facts.

I have no idea what that means. The whole point of the discussion is to illustrate the limitations of the data. We don’t celebrate data for its own sake. We analyze its usefulness and its limitations. They teach this kind of thinking in liberal arts colleges.

Partially true. PhD students usually have their educations paid for (along with a living stipend) by the institution. But yes, there is an opportunity cost and that is loss of higher earnings. I would say in practically all cases.

Well, on behalf of the liberal arts college fan club, I thank you for that crumb of praise.

Again, when you say this it doesn’t magically lead to any conclusion. You’re using the data to make a point - that full pay people might reconsider these institutions because 9 years out (really 5) the data scoop shows a number you can’t live with. I’m telling you that you need to dig a little deeper, which is often the case with data.

I don’t want to sound any more pedantic than I already sound, but I don’t think WM’s information rises to the level of a study, as that term is typically used in research circles. It’s a data scoop for a ranking.

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I’m confused. Are you focused on “salary” vs. “earnings”?

Does that change the conversation? If so, please share.

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No, what happened was that tsbna almost immediately re-jiggered the WM rankings into one that solved for ROI (earnings/salaries - take your pick) five years after graduation, and we’ve been arguing about it ever since.

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Ignore my earlier post. I had forgotten details about the ranking. I apologize.

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And, of course, none of these rankings are capable of revealing the truth about attending any of these high-flying, super remunerative institutions which is that they often are very different at the classroom level as well the vibe outside in general. Thus, we get reports that substantial numbers of Harvard students don’t even bother attending class and somehow still are able to nab six-figure entry level salaries despite wasting their parents money for four years. You can only imagine what the campus vibe is like where these future Masters of the Universe are the dominant species.

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Sorry. Corrected “salaries”. Not sure why my phone goes wonky. Or the S is next to the D and I just erred.

Yes I like LACs and I imagine outcomes are similar for similar jobs at similar locations no matter the where from a school attended pov.

I do think many will suffer from lack of brand awareness and I don’t think there’s that many PhDs in the world.

My main point was like any ranking - it succeeds using the criteria the creator decided to use.

I’ll just say there’s a reason many LACs, including top ones, don’t publish salary data. They will post other data including employment, further study and not employed percentages.

There’s a reason they don’t list salaries. Why publish something that would turn prospective students away from you - and I’m talking the masses, not the few here who think salaries aren’t relevant. Schools have marketing teams - they know this so they omit the data .

At the same time, most LACs don’t have the full component of highly paid majors.

Bucknell does and shows up very well vs anyone.

I believe it’s the majors offered that shows LACs in a lesser light salarywise.

Thanks

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Their methodology is complex, and above my pay grade

So I defer to posters like @Data10 to decipher it, but they do note that they look at the number of pell grant recipients and students in ROTC , so that can influence some of their metrics such as the “bang for buck” one that some seem to heavily focus on. They also give bonus points for the number majoring in health, education or social work because they fall under the category that seems to fall under “service or giving back “and are not highly paid. So they do manipulate their data a bit, and there are other examples which are again a little complex. But as others have said, it is essential to go in for a deeper dive to understand the metrics.

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92

The people who matter know what they need to know. There are a lot of people who confuse the University of Pennsylvania with Penn State and don’t appreciate the University of Chicago or Rice for what they are. I’m not sure that matters. Besides, aren’t you the one who always insists that we ignore name recognition and prestige? The University of Alabama’s brand is not exactly synonymous with academic prestige, yet you remind the forum that your son attended there and is doing quite well. So why are we talking brand again?

The absolute number of PhDs wasn’t at all the point. There may not be that many PhDs but there are also not that many LAC graduates. The significant number of LAC graduates who go on to pursue one was the point as one nuance to consider in the salary metric. PhD students are generally poor.

Because the people at the LACs know that their education model is for the long game. They build it that way intentionally and generally are not in the business of selling you your first job. Yet many, at least the top ones, break their own records for applications submitted almost every year.

The other reason they may not publish salaries is because of its limited utility for the reasons I keep trying to explain but that you seem intent on ignoring. This is a cohort of generally intellectual kids that includes among them those whose life plans may not line up with, and are perhaps in many cases more bold, than your own. Imagine if Mike White were obsessed with his salary after graduating rather than making his way through the entertainment industry to reach the point at which he brings us the White Lotus series.

In any event, for those graduates who want a more predictable economic future, I forward to you the example, already proffered by another poster, of one of the country’s most selective employers hiring 4 kids from one such school with no brand. So, it’s there for the kids who want it.

I think at the end of the day, the LAC model is one with which you may not be very familiar. It’s not personal to me; I don’t care whether or not you like them or value them. I just think you don’t know them very well but are nonetheless drawing and sharing big conclusions based on a limited data set. That limited data set doesn’t make the ranking successful. I’m not sure what that even means. It just makes it limited in its usefulness without further discussion.

But by all means …. I’ve said all I can say on the topic and this thread was asleep before I woke it.

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I agree certain schools can be confused. Your Penn / Penn State, WashU and U Wash and yes some of the elite LACs don’t have name recognition. @AnonMomof2 had a very funny comment about St Olaf, having more recognition than Hamilton, because isn’t that where Rose is from? Everyone loves Betty White.

As I noted, I think the salary delta is based on majors. Not school name or type. I’m simply not dismissive of the study is all you are and that’s fine. Like Dave Mason sang, “We Just Disagree.’ Really no need to debate.

But some other thoughts -

I personally hate the LAC / regular school divide because where is it ? Is Bucknell an LAC when it has a school of business and a robust engineering major ? Hamilton doesn’t. So should they be in the same bucket ?

And isn’t the A&S at name your school in theory what an LAC is or at least offers from a are of study POV although many flagships will have an A&S school bigger than an LAC. My daughter’s school is considered an LAC (or a public one as they say) - it’s 9k kids and yes it has business and a general engineering major and I’m sure Bucknell’s salaries dwarf it - in part because its students are statistically less accomplished going in but also because no one wants to leave the city its located in so they self eliminate potential opportunities. Bucknell’s salaries dwarf most every LACs. And given financial issues at LACs, just like large universities, we may (or may not see) a culling of majors but added majors in pre professional areas - which in theory would result in an employment and salary bump.

Clark U, for example, is reorganizing and states:

  • Refocusing curriculum and academic departments around three key areas of strength that are most relevant to meeting the needs of a changing world — Climate, Environment, and Society; Media Arts, Computing, and Design; and Health and Human Behavior — while also sustaining the University’s liberal arts foundation to further drive outcomes and better meet student needs/preferences.“

Flagships, and especially big sports schools, will always have name more and in most (not all cases) more name recognition - whether you seek is an academic powerhouse or not. That’s part of the allure of being in big sport conferences. And in interviews, interviewers get excited about football. In the end, someone ( I think @IndySceptic brought up the comment about a student dreaming of one school but maybe having to settle for another - they come from a well to do, decent family and they start waaaay ahead of the game no matter where they attend. Those are my kids too - not boarding kid schools nor uber wealthy - but raised with opportunity from well meaning and well to do parents (whether we did well or not but we did provide opportunity) and both kids have taken off and run on their own. They have to earn their keep but they were well positioned through upbringing and have themselves established a strong work ethic. People say it’s the upbringing and major and not the school. I think that my kid’s initial success is an example of them at least having a head start vs many others. I hope their strong work ethic carries them through and that they have a lot of luck - and as we all know, one often creates luck through their efforts. But I will always provide a safety net like my dad did for me when I struggled. Not everyone has that - but yes, both my kids chose not to attend a powerhouse but had a chance depending on how one defines a powerhouse. I did not like that for my engineer - but it looks like 2 years out it’s made zero difference as he told me up front it would.

I literally chose Syracuse for basketball - dumb on the surface. But I was 17. And it came up each time I had a job interview - Bob Costas, Marc Albert, Dick Stockton, blah blah blah.

As I noted, I see no issue or delta with an LAC.

But I do think salary info is fair game and I wouldn’t diminish a study that shows something you don’t like, simply for that reason. It’s all I’m saying in this entire diatribe.

The Harvard grad majoring in art history or anthro will likely earn less than the Bama engineer too over a lifetime (on average)…as will the Stanford English major. Heck, one of my admins was a Stanford English major. Not sure why she chose the role. Maybe she had no choice.

The study makes clear sense because of the major differentiation.

The feed was dead but re opened. I simply wanted to note a different take to your conclusion. Thanks for your response.

Thx

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@cquin85

This is spot on: “Because the people at the LACs know that their education model is for the long game. They build it that way intentionally and generally are not in the business of selling you your first job. Yet many, at least the top ones, break their own records for applications submitted almost every year.”

It’s unfortunate when some don’t seem to read and/or understand the metrics that some argue that the metrics make sense in any given “ranking”. Everything is not about money. Thank you again for your recent posts.

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I think once you clear away the many detours in your thought process, your “diatribe“ still comes down to the idea of accepting every ranking on its face value. You’re never going o win that argument with a LAC graduate. So, stop trying.

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I’m not sure what to do with a good portion of that stream of consciousness but here you’re ascribing to me intent and motive that is just inaccurate. It comes off as a lazy attempt to refute everything I wrote without doing any work. I could say the same thing: you have written extensively in support of the salary data, as you put it, because you like the conclusions that you think you’re able to draw from it. That’s a game that can be played both ways.

To be clear, I am not diminishing anything and my position has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not I like anything. You may operate that way but I generally don’t.

I’ve only pointed out the limitations of a very specific data set gathered by a magazine publication. You don’t seem interested in considering those limitations, which is your prerogative.

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And additionally, if one takes a look at the numbers in the “best liberal arts” list, its quite easy to see that 9 years out, the median salary of the Berea grads is just below $37K. That is quite low, and equals about $18/hr. And that is 9 years after entering?? Its barely more than half of almost all of the other schools on the list, and the only reason it tops the list is because the “ROI” is high because it often costs virtually nothing to attend. So when the investment is ZERO, any income earned after no investment will “look” high.

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9 years after entering college according to the table. Still really low. Google AI is giving me $36,500 in median income for ages 15 to 24 for Kentucky.

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Good point. Correction made. But HM students stay in KY after college? And their retention/graduation rate seems sadly low too.

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So they don’t even need to go to college to earn that!

But 9 years after entering college they should be 27 years old or so. What’s the median earning rate for that age group?

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Google AI only offers an estimate of $69k for ages 25-44. Perhaps a more relevant stat is that the the entry salary for Kentuckians with a bachelor’s degree was $57,200 (Google AI FWIW)

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That’s a wide age swath. It seems that the median salary reported in this particular survey suggests that they can earn virtually the equivalent at that age if they don’t attend college.

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