<p>1) Whereas it was once the case that close to 50% of Michigan students had sub 3.0 GPAs (Michigan was indeed known for grade deflation), that is no longer the case. I graduated from Michigan with a 3.45 GPA in 1996. Back then, a 3.45 was among the top 25% of the graduating class and good enough for Cum Laude honors. Today, a student must have at least a 3.65 GPA to graduate in the top 25% of the class. Back then, the average GPA in the College of LSA was barely 3.0, if that. Today, it is closer to 3.3. Michigan is not inflating grades by any means, but it is certainly no longer that difficult to maintain a 3.0 GPA. So my question to you is simple. Why would a student who cannot handle the sciences wish to major in Engineering? </p>
<p>2) There is no such thing as an EE major at Michigan with a 2.1 GPA. Students admitted into the CoE must complete one year of core classes and then declare their major. Since EE,CE and ME are so popular, only the better students can elect to major in one of those popular fields. Most 2.0-2.9 students will probably major in Industrial Engineering or another less demanding or less popular discipline.</p>
<p>Uh, you have moved the goalposts. I am not talking about the grading in LSA OVERALL. I am talking specifically about grading in science courses, and specifically in lower-division courses that will let you be an engineer (and which also tend to be weeders). I think we can both agree that the grading in those courses is quite low. </p>
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<p>Because it’s better to get an engineering degree with low grades than to get a science degree with low grades. More specifically, if you are getting a 2.5 in physics or math anyway, you might as well just switch over to EE (if you can). After all, with grades like that, you know you’re not going to graduate school anyway, so you need to get a job. It’s easier to get a job with a 2.5 in EE than a 2.5 in physics.</p>
<p>Now you might say that perhaps this guy is just better off just majoring in a nontechnical major completely, and I would probably agree. But that still means that, effectively, his choice of majors is restricted. </p>
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<p>Whatever. This is a distinction without a difference. The point is, there are still LSA people with better grades who can’t get into engineering because the engineering school is reserving spots for bad engineering students. I’m sure that there are quite a few science majors in LSA who wouldn’t mind switching over to any engineering, even IndE, but aren’t being allowed to. </p>
<p>And besides, what you just stated just reveals another part of the problem - which is that some Michigan engineering students can’t get into the engineering major that they want. They come to Michigan hoping to major in EE, but then can’t get in, so they end up having to take a ‘backup major’ that they don’t really want. </p>
<p>The point is, at the end of the day, there are students at Michigan (and also at Cal) who don’t get to study what they really want. At schools like Stanford, that doesn’t happen. Hence, that gets back to my central point which is that it doesn’t really matter if your school is strong at X if you’re not going to be allowed to major in X.</p>
<p>“More specifically, if you are getting a 2.5 in physics or math anyway, you might as well just switch over to EE (if you can). After all, with grades like that, you know you’re not going to graduate school anyway, so you need to get a job.”</p>
<p>You can always get into grad school, though it might be as a part-time student, a night-school student, and/or a student at a mediocre college. You rack up a gaudy GPA, and suddenly you’re in at really good grad schools. As a last resort, you go to a crappy college and get a second bachelor’s degree in philosophy with a 3.96 gpa…not that I ever did this myself. No way. Uh uh. Not in a million years. Honest.</p>
<p>You can do this as an engineering student with low grades.</p>
<p>The basic point is this. It’s better to get an engineering degree with low grades than to get a science degree with low grades. At least with an engineering degree, you can get a decent job as an engineer, even if your grades are low. It may not be with a good company, but you can still get a job. With a science degree and low grades, it’s not easy to find a job.</p>
<p>Sakky, I am not avoiding the point. I am actually discussing this with the Engineering administration. I am waiting for hard numbers. Last time I checked the official numbers, the success rate for students wishing to transfer from Engineering to LSA was 100% and for those wishing to transfer from LSA to Engineering was over 95%. Back in my day, the transfer was merely a formality. This may have changed in the last few years and that is why I am waiting to hear back from the CoE.</p>
<p>Well, I don’t think admit percentages really tell the whole story. After all, if you have a GPA cutoff (from LSA to engineering), that means that a lot of people who want to transfer won’t even apply to do it because they know they won’t make it because they didn’t clear the cutoff. Let’s face it. If the engineering school says that a 3.0 is the cutoff, and you have a 2.3, you probably won’t even try. If you had a 2.9, maybe you’ll try to see if you can work the system. But with a 2.3, you know you’re not even close.</p>
<p>Sakky, there isn’t a “cutoff” point. A 3.0 is adviseable, but the University cannot, by law, forbid a student from requesting a transfer. Obviously, the vast majority of students who wish to transfer have GPAs over 2.7. At any rate Sakky, if you have issues with the concept that transfering is easy at Michigan, let me rephrase. Transfer is practically automatic for all average or good (relatively speaking) students. Mediocre students on the other hand tend to have a harder time transfering from college to college. In other words, only the bottom third of the students in LSA will have trouble transfering into the CoE. Does that sit better with you? But like I said, you aren’t going to see many students who would really and genuinely consider majoring in Engineering with sub 3.0 GPAs. The Math, Physics and Chemistry majors at Michigan tend to be among the better students on campus. Their GPA usually exceeds 3.5.</p>
<p>Knowing nothing about the Mich system, I’d have to say that this is a pretty bold statement.</p>
<p>I mean physics, math and chemistry are certainly on the far end of the “difficulty” scale compared to the broad spectrum of majors out there - even if most of those students are “smart” - it’s hard to believe that the average GPA in those majors comes even close to exceeding 3.5.</p>
<p>Yes, they are the toughest majors and they attract the smartest students. The cumulative GPA of Physics and Math mahors at Michigan is generall higher than the average and since the verage GPA is roughly 3.2 or 3.3, I’d say the average GPA of Physics or Math majors is slightly higher than that, probably around the 3.4 or 3.5 range. But we digress. The point I am making is that in almost 100% of the cases, students who wish to transfer from LSA to Engienering are allowed to do so. I am still waiting for the official stats, but last time I checked, they stood at close to 100%.</p>
<p>My daughter is a math major at Mich. That average gpa of 3.5 looks high to me.</p>
<p>I also find it interesting that there are math classes for math students and math classes for engineering students. And the harder classes are for math students. :)</p>