To me, the PSAT score of 1250 is a red flag. If the converted ACT score is around the same or even a little better, I can’t see how Columbia or NYU would admit this kid. I can see how sometimes college might be the best route for some profoundly gifted kids, but a PSAT of 1250 does not reflect that here.
This appears to be the PSAT 8/9, which has a maximum score of 1440. 1250 is perfectly good score, but I think I would be cautious about pushing too far, too fast.
OP is in South Florida, any chance of looking into FAU High School? There are some tremendously smart and gifted kids there, and the ability to effectively cross register for courses from 9th grade on at FAU means that the student can ease into a college environment.
A 1250 8/9 PSAT should convert to a 1400+ SAT, but that represents a future scenario, of course, and may not be relevant to current decisions.
@1NJParent - Do you have a source for this? A few years ago, CTY published some data on scoring in a hard copy newsletter to SET members. We don’t have it anymore, but I seem to recall only a few dozen (at most) under 14 year-olds scored in excess of 1550ish or perhaps were even double SET (greater than 700 on both sections of the SAT), but frankly my memory might be a little hazy. Perhaps you are thinking of cumulatively over the 50 years SET has been around?
I think there are only 300-600 perfect scores (single sitting) in the entire SAT population every year, including all high schoolers as well, so it just doesn’t seem possible that there are so many 7th and 8th graders doing it, again at least every year. I’d guess fewer than 25 per year, perhaps fewer than 10, but I would LOVE to be shown I am wrong because I am always amazed at the intellectual ability of many of our young people.
In Northwestern’s similar talent search the last two years, there were no perfect 1600s among the 6th-9th graders taking it. The highest score was three 1580s.
https://northwestern.app.box.com/s/7dy3z9mcpc06zcspptov1ikm4wf1en0x
@JimPugilist
My S19 could have enrolled in a prestigious private university in our hometown part-time at 13, was a member of MENSA at age 5 & scored a perfect ACT at age 10! Our gut told us “no” let him be a kid. He flew through Stanford EPGY math in middle school on his own at home, was in his school’s gifted program, doubled up on AP math and AP sciences in HS became an accomplished concert pianist, went on to win state and national titles, again scoring a perfect ACT in HS and perfect SAT math. He hit puberty around 14 and grew to 6 foot by time he graduated valedictorian at age 16 last June. He went to proms, performed in musicals, played drums in the marching band, accompanied the chorus, went on out-of-state band trips…etc. All these experiences have formed who he is and taught him independence. ALL of these EXPERIENCES prepared him when he went away to college one month after turning 17. He thrived as a college freshman maintaining a 4.0 as he watched many of his floor mates fail out. My advice is use the numerous online resources available to enrich his intellectual curiosity but do not downplay the importance of real-life experiences that will shape the person he will become.
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Very helpful. Has anyone seen similar breakouts for CTY-JHU and/or Duke TIP?
I would second this. Our S21 was intellectually ready for college at age 12, but we have chosen to keep him in high school and supplement with online and dual enrollment courses where appropriate. It hasn’t always been easy finding the desired math and science courses, but the experiences he has gained socially and emotionally especially in the last two years have been invaluable. I am confident that our kid will be a much better college student when he enters at 17 than he would have been at 12 (and at 6’1" now he won’t be the smallest boy in the class, lol).
OP, there are so many resources out there now to keep learning and progressing, I would hold off on college at least until age 15 or 16, if possible.
CTY used to have them on their website (not sure if they still do). They published the full distributions of SAT scores of their participants by grade and sex. I was a little surprised when I first saw those data, considering getting perfect 800s on the verbal sections of the old SAT, which used vocabulary few 7th or 8th graders would normally have encountered, wouldn’t be trivial (scoring perfect 800 on math wouldn’t be a problem for many advanced 7th/8th graders).
I couldn’t find any, but I did see this from TIP that says the highest score among their 7th-grade testers was a 1590.
https://tip.duke.edu/sites/default/files/atoms/files/7gts-results-summary.pdf
Richard Rusczyk, the founder of Art if Problem Solving, wrote this about what he called “The Calculus Trap”: https://artofproblemsolving.com/news/articles/avoid-the-calculus-trap
I think this same reasoning applies whether one is talking about math or liberal arts or just plain growing up. There is so much material outside standard curriculum that can be explored as enrichment — literature to read, etc. I would also question how much community service or volunteer work a 12 year old kid has done, as this can contribute greatly to furthering emotional maturity, and frankly, most colleges look for this in their applicants’ backgrounds. Finally, I get that parents want what is best for their kids but when I hear a parent say they would love to give the kid more time but the kid says high school is not an option, I kind of wonder who is the parent and who is the child?
Clearly your son is very bright, also has an unusual laser-like focus at a very early age. People with these sorts of obsessive interests at a young age may change their focus of interest with time, but they usually do tend to be very obsessive and focused in the next interest, too. They can wind up as top experts in their chosen field.
His PSAT score is good, but nothing that unusual. All three of my bright but not-ready-for-college kids scored better than that at that age on that test (the PSAT 8/9). Lots of their friends scored better than that. Academically they were ready for community college and local state colleges at that age - but surprise, the lower level classes at those schools are far less challenging than honors and AP classes at any decent suburban high school.
The most important type of intelligence for a happy, satisfying life is… SOCIAL INTELLIGENCE. One doesn’t develop this through leaving one’s peer group. Please, read carefully the posts by CAZ and Onemoretogo. This is what you want and need for your son, for so many reasons.
He probably has a year of online schooling ahead of him, no matter how you choose to proceed, because of coronavirus. From what you describe, what he needs (not wants, NEEDS), more than anything else, is true peer interaction, and he’s not going to get that stuck at home next year, but that’s probably what the virus is going to mandate. Online education however you want to do it this year, and meanwhile, you need to be planning for Sept 2021.
Assuming you have read this far, this is what I recommend. From what you write, I suspect that you are immigrants from a country that values education. Your son will find his peer group in a specialized high school with very bright kids whose families come from all over the world. He also needs access to college classes that focus on his unique interest. You can find this in NYC. I suggest that you move to anywhere within the 5 boroughs of NYC in time for him to sit for the exam for the specialized schools - you can read up on how to do it here: https://www.schools.nyc.gov/enrollment/enroll-grade-by-grade/specialized-high-schools.
Take note that he has to be a current resident of NYC AND a current 8th grade student (but that can mean home-schooled and you call him an 8th grader). He will find his peer group at Stuyvesant, or Bronx Science. From what you describe, and especially with exam preparation, he will very likely get in. He’ll start 9th grade in September 2021, only a year younger than the other 9th graders. They will all be very bright, highly motivated learners. The schools are designed for these kids. A lot of the kids will come from East Asian and South Asian families. Their high school classes will be more challenging than those at many colleges. If his interest in German language and history is still his focus, he can probably take a class every semester in person at Columbia. Living in NYC itself is an experience that will help him to mature socially, and he can at the same time be going through a stimulating well-rounded academic curriculum with an appropriate peer group, where he can also develop into a socially confident young man with the skills to navigate the social opportunities, in addition to the academic opportunities, at one of our leading universities.
My two cents: if he is interested in highly-selective colleges, I would not have him graduate high school this early, if at all possible. There’s a lot more than just grades and scores involved in highly-selective college admission in the US. They are looking for the whole package and that would include maturity and self-development of non-quantifiable personal qualities through activities outside of class. Young age tends to be a disadvantage for pursuing such activities.
Surely there’s a way to give him interesting classes (e.g. AoPS as mentioned above) and graduate high school closer to the normal time. For the most part, you only get one chance at undergrad, unless you go back for a second bachelors. I think undergrad too soon may be limiting rather than the other way around, i.e., may close doors rather than open them. I would try to stretch out high school and have him graduate at 17 if you can.
1250 at 12 is a great score on the 8/9, but would not have me thinking early college, at least not early selective college. PSAT scores do not get converted - PSAT scores supposedly indicate what the student would have scored on the SAT if they had taken it that same day, even though the various PSATs have a lower ceiling than the SAT. And this student didn’t hit the ceiling. If you really need to know where he stands for scores, he could take a full practice SAT timed at home, available free on the College Board website, though for now, I’d simply assume that he’ll do very well when he takes the real thing in a few more years. Growth in score is expected over time.
(I have a 13 y.o. with similar 8/9 scores who just finished precalc. His perspective seems very advanced for his age and he could probably hold his own in some community college classes if he tried. However, he is nowhere near all-the-way baked yet and he is aiming for highly-selective colleges. He’ll have dual enrollment courses later in high school as needed and will graduate around the time he turns 18.)
We had three PG students in my D’s HS. I also recommend looking for a private HS environment where your child can be challenged academically instead of looking at college. Those HSs do exist! All were able to take a combination of APs and DE courses to keep them challenged and engaged. All stayed in HS for the 4 full years. The youngest will graduate at 15. They really, really needed that time to mature and develop social skills. It also gave them time to delve into the ECs that are so important for competitive college admission.
There are states with dual enrollment programs that pay for undergraduate classes while the student retains their high/middle school status. Best of both worlds - enriched academically challenging courses on a college campus, plus age appropriate sports/other extra curricular opportunities at the local school while building connections with other talented peers that live at home, too.
They can still apply to selective colleges with freshman status eligibility for scholarships/financial aid later at an age that will allow them to live in dorms, participate in internships and take advantage of all the opportunities that require emotional maturity.
Ohio’s starts as early as 7th grade and will pay for 120 credit hours at any state school and many private Ohio colleges also participate on a per credit hr reduced rate. Ohio’s program is called College Credit Plus.
@JimPugilist - How (other than the romance of NYC) did the places currently on his dream list end up there? Has he been reading stuff written by faculty members at those places? If that’s why he has a specific interest in a specific institution, he could communicate directly with the professors and find out what they think. One or another might take an interest in him.
On the other hand, if his short-list is solely made up of famous name institutions, then he should spend some time identifying places that have strong programs for his major. He may find that there are some not-famous places that are good options for him.
Meanwhile, here are two articles that popped up in my social media this past week featuring very young graduates who seem reasonably well balanced. You and your son might be able to get more details about their experiences.
https://scoop.upworthy.com/13-year-old-california-college-youngest-graduate-four-associates-degrees?fbclid=IwAR1JWkJtfuMXHwgda8ERl5C03xGzA8gL37k7vL-MRHkGxNh5G8syo7aq_B8
https://people.com/human-interest/14-year-old-chicago-girl-earns-her-masters-degree/
I’ve never understood the point of following the path described in these two articles. Who wants to be the youngest graduate on record from a lower tier college just for the sake of it? It can be quite hard to move on from that to the next stage of your career. Ronan Farrow is unusual in doing that, but had enormous family advantages and contacts to get him those opportunities in the Obama White House. Making it without that is vastly harder.
Why not go to a tippy top college a few years later and challenge yourself against the smartest people in the world (and gain all the long term career advantages of succeeding in that milieu). Much better to prepare yourself adequately for that, which as many posters have noted, requires spending time on gaining life experience, doing ECs, etc.
Very little if that is feasible if you are going to college at 13. Even a pure academic track is hard to pursue at that age, and would be even more difficult on an arts track rather than math. I wonder if OP has given any thought to what his kid will be doing in 10 years time?
Erik Demaine, a professor at MIT, finished his PhD at the age of 20 at U of Waterloo.
He is a winner of a MacArthur Fellowship at the age of 22, as well as a long list of other prestigious awards (not to mention being a full professor at MIT since 2011, when he was only 30), I would say there are very few people of this type in the world.
@JimPugilist While your kid sound pretty smart, my question is: what else is he doing, besides taking classes? Is he engaged in any extracurricular activities? Here is the thing - there are many really bright kids out there. PG kids are about 0.1% of the all kids. Sounds like few, but there are still over 74,000 kids who are in that category, of who about 12,500 are in the 12-15 age group.
Admissions to Columbia is not a prize for being smart, or for reading at a much higher level than their age. They ask themselves “what will this student bring to the college?” A child prodigy like Dr Demaine was is one thing. However, a 13 year old PG/HG kid is another. Why should they accept a 13 year old kid, who will require much more investment than the many 17 and 18 year old HG/PG high school graduates who are also applying, who, aside from being as smart as your kid, are far more mature, and likely more accomplished.
Another serious issue is that your son has not even started puberty. I can tell you, from personal experience, that puberty for PG/HG kids can be extremely difficult for both the kid and the parents.
PG and HG kids suffer from mental health and behavioral issues at rates far beyond those of other kids their age. One of the most common reasons for parents to post on the FB page for parents of Davidson Young Scholars is to get advice on behavioral issues. Parents of teens have worse issues. There is a good chance that you will not recognize your kid when he is 14 or 15.
Believe me when I tell you that you don’t want this behavior going on when your kid is attending college. It is difficult enough dealing with it at a high school, even if your kid is home schooled.
While @cptofthehouse’s friend found his way by leaving high school (albeit when he was three years older than your son is now), a profoundly gifted 13 year old will rarely find 18-35 year old community college students to provide a better social environment than “normal” high school students.
Of the many PG/HG kids I knew, most went through high school, usually skipping a year or two, received extensive enrichment (often free), engaged heavily in extracurricular activities, and went to college at the age of 16-18 after graduating from high school, and mostly attend or attended the college which is/was the best fit and which their parents could best afford.
If you can move anywhere in the US, have you looked at the Davidson Academy in Reno? I concur with the PP who have said that even a PG child may need a little more parental guidance than simply accepting the statement “high school is not an option”.
Disclaimer: I have one of those, but I’m not in the US. I wonder if @intparent is still around?
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If by “high school is not an option” you mean your local public high school- then look further afield. And college in NYC for a young teenager who is not street smart – ugh, can’t imagine it.
Since it sounds like you guys are mobile and not worried about paying for college, you’ve got tons of great options. Cities with rigorous magnet programs for gifted students? Places where your son can home school himself with a few online classes?
He’s going to be a much more attractive student to loads of great colleges with a few more years of academics and life experience- why not give him that gift? A summer immersion program living in Germany, more history classes focused on a part of the world he doesn’t know much about, a semester spending his free time hanging out in art museums or cool archives… lots to do between the ages of 12 and 17 or 18 to supplement his interests and talents.